1950's film Agfacolor ultra-k 40 ASA / fomachrome / ORWO color / kodacolor-x

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by StoneNYC, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    Hey guy


    I've gotten my hands on a few rolls of each of the following,

    Kodacolor-X (which I just saw in my freezer actually, and since it's Kodak I can probably find that info more easily but figured I would add it since I'm here anyway).

    Fomachrome (which MAY be E-6? But it only has Russian on it so I can't really be sure).

    ORWO Color (which I also haven't yet looked for but assume it's hard to find data).

    And finally,

    AGFA Agfacolor Ultra-K 40 ASA (which I've done the most research since I've already shot a roll on a modeling shoot).

    I mention the ASA specifically because it seems there were quite a few variants of the ultra film, and possibly a few K versions, certainly TONS of Agfacolor versions.

    Now I smelled the roll when I took it out and it did not have any heavy vinegar smell, so I'm hoping it's in some way good.

    Two questions (for all films)

    1. Obviously does anyone know or have a book that will give me the times, temps, special old fashioned procedures, and chemical equivalents available today?

    And 2. Should I even bother processing as color or should I just process as B&W because I'll have too many color shifts? And if so suggested procedures for B&W chemistry?

    I really would love to see the color, even if it's bad but finding any info on this seems impossible.

    Anyome know of a book that I could look for that has this data that was written back then (1950-1960's)?

    Thanks guys!

    ~Stone
     
  2. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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  3. foc

    foc Member

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    For info on Agfa colour process try a look here

    http://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Agfa.html

    As far as I know Orwo was very similar to the Agfa process CN17 and CNS process (they were always at 20C) and so not compatable with C41 (which is 38C) and trying to process a CNS type film in C41 will melt the emulsion. I think you will have better and easier results processing the colour neg films in B&W chemicals.

    The Kodacolor X is C22 process, which C41 replaced in the early 1970's. Again C22 was a 20C process so processing it in C41 can have the same effect as the Agfa colour neg film. I think B&W would be best for this.

    Fomachrome would be a transparency film (slides). The names suggests that it belongs to Foma, now in the Czech republic. Bach in the 1950's it would have been part of the Soviet states and so I would safely say that the slide process for this film was an Agfa one not E2 or E4 which were Kodak. (Remember the Soviets took all of Agfa's technical knowhow after WW2). The Agfachrome process is now a dead process, Agfa changing to E6 in the late 1970's, and I don't have any info on the Agfachrome process.

    Hope this might help.
     
  4. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Agfacolor Ultra-K, Fomachrom II are to be processed in a classic Agfacolor process.
    The first is a negativ- the second a reversal-film.

    You did not specify the type of Orwocolor film. Thus I cannot even state whether it is a negativ- or reversal-film. Anyway, the chance that you got a modern formula Orwocolor is slight, thus I assume it belongs to those processed in a classic Agfacolor process.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2012
  5. AgX

    AgX Member

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    The US-Americans too...
     
  6. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    foc and agX, thanks for the info.

    The ORWO after closer inspection had a German word which using google translator said "to go back" so I think it's reversal film.

    foc, I actually have seen that page before, but I only read the K section last time, and regular K on this list only has a 10 and 12 ASA speed, where the ULTRA-K is 40 ASA (ultra fast! Haha). So I couldn't tell where the Ultra-K process info is, BUT re-reading right at the bottom, in the history area I discovered the answer, the Ultra-K is CN17!

    I honestly have only hand processed E-6 and a bunch of different B&W films from as old as 1967. All successfully, but this is color and 1958(agfacolor). The image on the film that I shot is a girl in a VERY RED dress, so I'm kind of hoping to try for color.

    I've just never even done C-41 (I have powder packets I've just never used them) but is there a way to dilute it so that it wouldn't destroy the emulsion as you said it might?

    I don't know anything about CN17 or CNS process, and I've never done E-2 or E-4 (thorough I'd like to learn E-4 as I've read that you can use that process with Kodachrome and develop it as B&W).

    Point is, I need a little more hand holding as I'm relatively new to this, all self taught, I wait till I get enough information and then give it a try, so far I haven't had a single bad development :smile:

    The agfacolor CN17 universal processing instructions call for a magnesium sulfate bath that is easy enough to make.

    But is there any kind of equivalent for the color developer? Anyone know enough about chemistry? I can make it if I know what chemicals to mix...

    Thanks again if anyone knows anymore, if I HAVE TO I will process in B&W I am just going to try color first.

    On that note, anyone know what B&W developer to use and what times to go by? I mostly use Ilford ilfsol 3 liquid developer, but I think this would be too harsh/strong for this film?

    Few ok I'll stop typing now. Thanks again.




    ~Stone

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  7. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    Wow I typed too much, to sum up the above...

    I need an equivalent color developer to the agfacolor CN17 Universal color developer.

    I need to know equivalent B&W times and suggested developer if I decide to just go B&W.

    And a C-22 chemical equivalent if possible.

    Thanks!


    ~Stone

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  8. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Stone,

    -) You'll find some Agfacolor-principle related developers at the article section under Recipes.
    By lack of a "colour film developer" section (on which installment nobody seems to be interested in) they are filed under paper developers...

    -) There were many, many color films that were based on that principle (watersoluble color-couplers, made non-diffusing), but not neccessarily shared one developer recipe.

    -) There were more than 20 films sharing the name Orwocolor, just for still photography.

    -) Bear in mind that aging could have made a more detrimental effect than application of a non-perfect developer. (Though no substantial tests on this matter are known to me.)
     
  9. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    Thanks AgX,

    I totally missed that section as well since I don't do my own printing I wasn't looking in that section.

    Yes, based on the year it's a later agfacolor version as by that point Agfa and wolf-gaveant had merged and even though its a merge I'm sure agfa's chemistry took precedence.

    Yes I expect that all the balls have turned green (though this is common for C-41 it may not be the case with older color negs). That's why I used the red dress as I believe that will color shift less? Either way it can be converted to B&W in (dare I mention) digital darkrooms.


    ~Stone

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  10. StoneNYC

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  11. AgX

    AgX Member

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    It were Agfa and Gevaert that merged.

    Wolfen is the name of the place were Agfa's primary filmplant was located. Preceeding that merger the primary Agfa-company (located in East-Germany) and the new erected Agfa-company (located in West-Germany) split their trade and legal connections and the primary company gave itself a new brand name: Original Wolfen

    There were companies that got rights to use the Agfacolor principle before WWII. The others were allowed by the surrender of Germany on Allied conditions to use freely Agfa patents. Amongs others this gave the freedom to evade Kodak patents.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2012
  12. AgX

    AgX Member

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    I just saw in one of your photos, that you got ORWOcolor UT 16.

    UT means: Umkehr-Tageslicht, thus Reversal-Daylight

    16 means speed in DIN, that is 32ASA
     
  13. StoneNYC

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    Thanks the yes it had "Color Umkehr Film" on the side so I looked up Umkehr and the translation was a little strange but I assumed it meant "reversal" , but thanks for the confirmation!

    And sorry for the misunderstanding of ORWO I only just read that info on the link given at the top and I read a lot and probably misremembered the info.

    Ok we've made some progress, I guess I'll read through that info and see if I can come up with some viable color developer.

    OH does any of this film require a hardener?


    ~Stone

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  14. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    Reviving one of my first threads to ask... now that I've finally shot the Fomachrome II film... I noticed that unlike the others that were from the 1950's, that it was from the mid 1980's So I shot it 2 stops under for age, but I'm still unsure which process this is, if it's the 80's I would think E-6 would be fine, but it could possibly be E-4 or some Foma variant? anyone "remember"? I did a google search, and got THIS thread LOL
     
  15. stefan4u

    stefan4u Member

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    Follow this link, this is your process for the orwochromes...

    http://super8data.com/database/articles_list/processing_orwo_9165.htm

    Fist development times depend on used Film, times are for FRESH material. Overexposing and pulling would be benefitial/necessary.

    Umkehrfilm UT 15 6...7 min.
    Umkehrfilm UK 17 6...7 min.
    Umkehrfilm UT 18 10...12
    Umkehrfilm Dia 18 10...12
    Umkehrfilm UT 20 10...12
    Umkehrfilm UT 23 10...12
    Umkehrfilm Professional L 6...7
    Umkehrfilm Professional S 10...12
    Umkehr-Kopierfilm UD 1 5...6
    Umkehr-Kopierfilm UD 2 5...6

    Sometimes you can find these old kits on ebay germany,
    http://www.ebay.de/itm/3x-original-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    regards stefan