20x24" pt/pd prints -hands on experience?

Discussion in 'Ultra Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by lynux, Jun 29, 2008.

  1. lynux

    lynux Member

    Messages:
    15
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    20x24" pt/pd prints -hands on experience?

    -looking for feedback and pictures?
    -any cost calculation available?

    thanks for your input,
    ...george
     
  2. Dave Wooten

    Dave Wooten Member

    Messages:
    2,718
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Location:
    Vegas/myster
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    PM Zebra on APUG, he does 20 x 24 in camera negs pt/pd.
     
  3. Zebra

    Zebra Member

    Messages:
    363
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2003
    Location:
    Asheville, N
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    George,

    As THE MAN DAVE WOOTEN! says I am crazy enough to have attacked this. Your timing is excellent as I printed up several negs today on Fabriano Artistico to put gum layers on tomorrow. PM me your email and I will send you some pictures. I'm no guru though so adjust your expectations accordingly! In general I haven't broken down the cost to a per print number though. If you shoot in camera negatives the film can run from anywhere around $12 a shot (Efke,haven't checked this price in a while so that's somewhat of a memory guess) to $23 dollars a shot (FP4). I took a pass on the TMY order at Glazer's at $32 a shot. Chemicals don't really stack up against those numbers and besides I don't want to know!! Suffice it to say you gotta really want to photograph what you point that beast at!

    All that being said when it comes out right its addictive.

    Monty
    aka Zebra

    ps.

    how ya' livin' Dave? I'll be in Vegas for work the 17th thru the 20th. Any chance we can cross paths? If you wanna bring your mom down for a game let me know and its a done deal.
     
  4. Dave Wooten

    Dave Wooten Member

    Messages:
    2,718
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Location:
    Vegas/myster
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Done Deal, Thanks Monty!

    Just back from a week at the Formulary-Sandy King and Carbon printing class. Oh - me- 0h - My! I advise all if you get a chance to take the class at the Formulary, just do it!
     
  5. RobertP

    RobertP Member

    Messages:
    1,130
    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    George, As even further proof of the man's mental stability, he even shoots 20x24 glass ambrotypes/tintypes. But he does it all very well. Robert.....Hey Stripes, thought you were heading up this way? Hope all is well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2008
  6. Zebra

    Zebra Member

    Messages:
    363
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2003
    Location:
    Asheville, N
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Robert,

    Yeah I should be up there on the 29th of July. Still not sure if I am coming in day of or the night before on the 28th. I'll keep you posted as soon as I know.

    Dave,

    bring some of those carbon prints down with you okay!

    later
     
  7. Jim Fitzgerald

    Jim Fitzgerald Member

    Messages:
    1,798
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2005
    Location:
    Ventura, Ca
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Dave, is carbon addictive or what? I could not get up to the Formulary workshop but I was able to take the one Vaughn put on in Hayward, CA. My negs were not right for the process but even so the prints and relief we got was amazing. I have two more prints that have to be sent to me and I can't wait to see them. Now that I have stopped building cameras I can't wait to get good at 11x14 and 8x20 carbon!

    Jim
     
  8. Dave Wooten

    Dave Wooten Member

    Messages:
    2,718
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Location:
    Vegas/myster
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Jim it is a very enjoyable process, I am shooting some new negs to print in carbon and to get my skill level off the bottom floor, this will take some serious concentration on my part. It is quite fun and is labor intensive and I certainly recommend taking a class from someone knowledgeable and dedicated to the process. Sandy has some prints in his portfolio that are jaw droppers! If that doesnt sell you, making carbon tissue and getting to get your hands in the glop certainly will! It s a good thing.
     
  9. Jim Fitzgerald

    Jim Fitzgerald Member

    Messages:
    1,798
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2005
    Location:
    Ventura, Ca
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Dave, I too have to re-think my negatives at some point. I'm going to play with the sensitizer first and see if I can make things work. Vaughn is a great teacher and he has some prints that make you speechless. I can't wait to get into the glop and eventually multi layered pin registered carbon prints. Check out the carbon forum for some good advice. Steep learning curve and very time consuming process but so is ULF! No problem for me. Keep me posted on your progress.

    Jim
     
  10. boyooso

    boyooso Member

    Messages:
    323
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Shooter:
    Large Format

    Making 20x24's is certainly possible, I just made my first 30x40's for a client. That is him drying his print :smile:

    [​IMG]

    For a 20x24 I use about 6ml of metal (12ml+- total solution) per print--you do the math on costs.

    A few things to consider....

    1. Use a strong enough paper, like arches platine.
    2. Use flat bottom trays that have extra room in them so the paper doesn't rock back and forth against the sides...
    3. Practice coating the paper with cyanotype and do some photograms, this will help you get used to coating and handling the big paper and you'll have fun with photograms...

    Good Luck!

    Corey
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2008
  11. Jeremy

    Jeremy Member

    Messages:
    2,767
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2002
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I also suggest the 4" Richeson magic brush for coating. I've printed a couple of 20x24s now and don't try to skimp on the solution as getting uneven coverage on the paper will cost more in the long run than just adding that extra mL or 2.
     
  12. Dave Wooten

    Dave Wooten Member

    Messages:
    2,718
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Location:
    Vegas/myster
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Nice Corey! I presume this is an enlarged neg?
     
  13. boyooso

    boyooso Member

    Messages:
    323
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Thanks Dave,

    No, this is from our special carbon fiber Chamonix camera, we had it made special :smile:

    I'm sorry I couldn't resist... Yes this was originally shot on 5x7.

    Corey
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2008
  14. Zebra

    Zebra Member

    Messages:
    363
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2003
    Location:
    Asheville, N
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Corey,

    That print looks beautiful!

    Monty
     
  15. sanking

    sanking Restricted Access

    Messages:
    4,813
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Location:
    Greenville,
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    I am currently on an island in the Strait of Georgia with limited internet access so I must be brief.

    First, thanks to Dave for his generous comments about the carbon workshop at the Formulary and my carbon prints. I had a great time working with Dave and the other two students, including Ron Reeder who is one of the gurus on making digital negatives. It was also great to meet David Vestal and All Weber, who were there at the time conducting another workshp.

    Second, as regards making large (20X24 is large, right?) I would encourage foks to consider making palladium or platinum toned kallitypes instead of directl pt./pd. prints. The end product is virtually identical as in toning the silver metal of a kallitype print is replaced by palladium or platinum. The cost is much less, and waste is small since you only tone the keeper prints.

    Sandy King
     
  16. michael9793

    michael9793 Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,012
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Location:
    Fort Myers,
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Sandy,
    won't Ziatypes be good too.
    I have been doing 8x20 palladium printing with Na2 and i will throw in a couple of drops of platinium. I use a glass rod because it takes so much less chemicals and I can control it easier.
    my formula is:
    25 Drops FeOx
    22 drops PD
    3 Drops Pt
    0-7 Drops Na2 (10%)
    I guess from that you could figure out something.

    michael andersen
     
  17. RobertP

    RobertP Member

    Messages:
    1,130
    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Michael,Potassium chloroplatinite and sodium chloroplatinate will not mix. There was a thread awhile back about this. I hope you haven't been doing this for a long time. Because at over 2 grand an once for platinum you have been flushing some of it down the drain. If you can't find the thread here then look in Dick Arentz's book, second edition, page 148. If you are going to use Na2 do not use potassium chloroplatinite with it.
     
  18. michael9793

    michael9793 Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,012
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Location:
    Fort Myers,
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Robert
    I have his book and didn't see that. Thank you for the insight on that. you are right about the cost and anything to save money.

    Mike A
     
  19. RobertP

    RobertP Member

    Messages:
    1,130
    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Michael, Pt/Pd printing is getting to be a very costly process. Anything to save a few bucks helps. Also I meant 2 grand an "ounce" not once. And to think they actually gave me a college degree...imagine that.
     
  20. michael9793

    michael9793 Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,012
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Location:
    Fort Myers,
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    even more sad is I read it as oz.

    might try Ziatype to see how that works. it is cheaper and you are doing POP prints.

    mike a:tongue:
     
  21. sanking

    sanking Restricted Access

    Messages:
    4,813
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Location:
    Greenville,
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Michael,

    Yes, Ziatype is an interesting process but still a lot more expensive in terms of the metal salts than a palladium or platinum toned kallitype, especially if you take into consideration the fact that you only use the pt.pd. toner on keeper prints. Also, although I have not done any serious cost comparison of Ziatype versus regular DOP palladium I believe that both are rougly equivalent in expense since the main expense involved in both is the palladium salt.

    In making 20X24 prints by any of the metal salt processes I have personally found that it is better to apply a fairly heavy coating rather than skimp. I coat 20X24 prints with a 4" Richeson brush and put on a total of 10-12 ml of solution. With this much coating solution you have to brush a bit longer to get rid of pooling but this does not have any negative effect with papers with a good size. I personally have had very poor results coating large prints witha glass rod and find the Richeson much more effective.

    Sandy King
     
  22. RobertP

    RobertP Member

    Messages:
    1,130
    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    I agree, I use a 3" Richeson for 8x20 and 12x20. I tried the puddle pusher one time and immediately went to the brush. Just remember to wet the brush and squeegee to a fine point before you use it. This will help keep you from losing solution that would be absorbed by a dry brush.