210mm Sironar N and Apo-Sironar N. Are they the same?

Discussion in 'Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by DrPhil, Jul 17, 2004.

  1. DrPhil

    DrPhil Member

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    Hopefully someone can clear up this grey area for me. I have a chance to get an 210mm Sironar N for a really good price. The lens is labeled as a Sironar N. It is multi-coated as it has the letters MC on the barrel as well. I don't have it in front of me, otherwise I would include the serial number too. Roughly from the mid 80 is my guess from the multi coated designation.

    Anyways to my question. I've been told that the change from the Sironar N to the Apo-Sironar N was a change in name only. Is this true? Does anyone have a catalog or brochure to compare the specs?

    Thanks,

    DrPhil
     
  2. Thilo Schmid

    Thilo Schmid Member

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    Yes, that is true. The same applies to Symmar-S MC and APO-Symmar. Both Rodenstock and Schneider have done the same Marketing Trick.
     
  3. ThomHarrop

    ThomHarrop Member

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    APO

    APO appended to the name of a lens usually means the lens is completely corrected for chromatic abberation. The APO is short for apochromatic. Because APO lenses were more difficult to design and more expensive to fabricate they were often only made for really high end uses before computerized lens design took over in the 1980s and 1990s. Whatever the case with this lens, the APO version should be a better lens.
     
  4. Helen B

    Helen B Member

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    Here's a link to a thread that includes this statement from Bob Salomon of HP Marketing:

    "The original Sironar was replaced by the Sironar-N which was replaced by the Sironar-N MC which was replaced by the Apo-Sironar-N, which is the current series.
    ...

    At no time was the Sironar and the Apo Sironar similar to each other."


    And here's the Rodenstock page of 210 mm Apo-Sironar charts and a page that includes a test of the 210 mm Sironar N. The data appear to indicate that the Apo Sironar outperforms the Sironar, but one is a page of manufacturer's MTF charts and one is a table of 'resolution' at different apertures from an independent tester.

    I wouldn't want to pass any personal opinion - I've never had the opportunity nor the desire to compare them. Even if they are different lenses, I wonder how much practical difference there is.

    Best,
    Helen
     
  5. Francesco

    Francesco Member

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    It probably becomes more of an important difference when extreme enlargements are made from the negative. No practical difference when the negative is contact printed.
     
  6. Thilo Schmid

    Thilo Schmid Member

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    The Question rather was, whether a Sironar-N MC has the same optical calculation (and coating) as the corresponding Apo-Sironar. A plane Sironar was of course never similar to an Apo-Sironar. Bob Salomon doesn't seem to be an objective source in this case, although he might know every leaflet figure. I'm sure he would answer that both are not the same, meaning that Apo-Sironars have red or white rings on their barrel ;-)
    The Apo-Sironar may have introduced improvements like better anti-flare varnish inside, smaller manufacturing tolerances or better quality control. But the optics are basically the same.
     
  7. Helen B

    Helen B Member

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    Thilo,

    I hope that the wording of my post showed that I was not saying that the two lenses were different (eg "Even if they are different lenses..." in the last sentence) so I'm a little dismayed to see Bob Salomon's words quoted as if they were mine, especially as I distrust the words of manufacturers' representatives and assume that others do likewise. But no matter.

    If the basic optical formulae are the same, but the Apo has "smaller manufacturing tolerances or better quality control" then the performance could well be different.

    Just out of interest, can you point us to the source of your information or tell us what led to your conclusion?

    Best,
    Helen
     
  8. Thilo Schmid

    Thilo Schmid Member

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    Sorry for the wrong quote, Helen.
    I have heart this from several sources and once got a confirmation from Schneider (for the Symmar-S MC and the Apo-Symmar), but it was not an official one and I remember that they insisted on the fact that Rodenstock has done the same :wink:
    Now, you have done a wrong quotation :smile:. I wrote that this "may" have been the case, meaning that it is a spculation of me, something they could have done to make a difference. But I have no confirmation for that. Anyhow, it seems that the changes in Product Design and Manufacturing do not neccessarily correlate to the changes in Marketing and vice versa.

    BTW: The Photokina Exhibition is a nice place to ask such questions
    http://www.photokina.de
     
  9. Helen B

    Helen B Member

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    "I wrote that this "may" have been the case, meaning that it is a speculation of me..." and I did realise that, so I put an 'if' at the beginning of my sentence. It's OK, I understood that it was speculation. As I hope my posts indicate, I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

    Best wishes,
    Helen