24 inch artar in ilex 4

Discussion in 'Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by avandesande, Oct 1, 2002.

  1. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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    Does anyone know if a 24" f11 artar will fit in an ilex 4? Skgrimes mentions that it will fit a #5, but ilex 4 are smaller and easier to get. I don't mind if I lose a little bit of max aperature...

    --Aaron
     
  2. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, a 24"/f:11 lens needs to be at least 2.18" in diameter plus a little room for the flange, and the maximum iris on an Ilex #4, according to this chart:

    http://www.skgrimes.com/ilex/index.htm

    is 1.730", turning the lens into an f:14 lens, presuming that the lens and shutter can be machined to fit (probably can, but ask Mr. Grimes). So you lose about half a stop, but you get a smaller, lighter shutter.

    What I've done is to take the Ilex#5 shutter that came with my 10" WF Ektar, and I've had an adapter made so that by removing the cells for the Ektar, I can mount my 12" Dagor or my 19" Apo-Artar onto the front of the same shutter. The shutter is big enough to work in this way without causing any vignetting with these particular lenses, it means I have fewer shutters to maintain and more consistent shutter speeds from one lens to the next, and that's only one big shutter/lensboard combination in my pack for three lenses. The downsides are that if that shutter fails in the field, there are three lenses I can't use (hasn't happened yet!), and it takes slightly longer to switch lenses if I have to swap out the cells for the Ektar to put on the 12" or the 19".

    Personally, I'd hold out for a #5 shutter, if you think you might want to use other barrel lenses on the same shutter. If not, go for a #4. Mr. Grimes often can provide refurbished Ilex, Alphax, and Betax shutters himself at reasonable prices. Have you asked if he has what you need in stock?
     
  3. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (David A. Goldfarb @ Oct 2 2002, 07:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Well, a 24&quot;/f:11 lens needs to be at least 2.18&quot; in diameter plus a little room for the flange, and the maximum iris on an Ilex #4, according to this chart:

    http://www.skgrimes.com/ilex/index.htm

    is 1.730&quot;, turning the lens into an f:14 lens, presuming that the lens and shutter can be machined to fit (probably can, but ask Mr. Grimes). So you lose about half a stop, but you get a smaller, lighter shutter.

    What I've done is to take the Ilex#5 shutter that came with my 10&quot; WF Ektar, and I've had an adapter made so that by removing the cells for the Ektar, I can mount my 12&quot; Dagor or my 19&quot; Apo-Artar onto the front of the same shutter. The shutter is big enough to work in this way without causing any vignetting with these particular lenses, it means I have fewer shutters to maintain and more consistent shutter speeds from one lens to the next, and that's only one big shutter/lensboard combination in my pack for three lenses. The downsides are that if that shutter fails in the field, there are three lenses I can't use (hasn't happened yet!), and it takes slightly longer to switch lenses if I have to swap out the cells for the Ektar to put on the 12&quot; or the 19&quot;.

    Personally, I'd hold out for a #5 shutter, if you think you might want to use other barrel lenses on the same shutter. If not, go for a #4. Mr. Grimes often can provide refurbished Ilex, Alphax, and Betax shutters himself at reasonable prices. Have you asked if he has what you need in stock?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
    I just got a nice #4 betax off of ebay for 35$. #5 shutters are very expensive (as far as I have seen). Another candidate would be a fujinon C 600, it is a 11.5 lens and takes a 67mm filter, and I would bet it would fit in a #4. I am not sure if you can pick this up in a barrel lens. I would be happy with any ~600mm dialyte that is coated and fit this shutter.

    Also, I discovered something on my last vacation. Single action shutters are very desirable if you are taking long exposures and need to shut the shutter when the wind blows. Recocking a shutter several times is tedius and you might move the camera.
     
  4. photodon

    photodon Member

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    A 24" artar will not fit in a four Ilex, but it will fit in some copal 3's, but still cost as much (or more ) than a Ilex 5
     
  5. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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    A quick calculation
    #4 ilex id 2.34 - inches

    #3 copal id 58 mm

    A conversion of inches to mm 2.34/.394 = 5.94 cm

    It still seems by diameter alone the ilex 4 is a little bigger than a Copal 3.

    --Aaron
     
  6. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

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    Bear in mind that the maximum aperture is usually smaller than the front flange size, and you need to account for both dimensions. Also, it is often possible for a good machinist to make the opening on the shutter just a bit larger and the flange on the lens a bit smaller, so that parts that won't exactly fit directly can be made to fit. That is probably what would have to happen to get your 24" Artar into a Copal 3 or Ilex 4. With an Ilex 5, you would require two adapter rings to mount the front and rear cells of the Artar to the shutter, with no machining required on the shutter or the lens cell housings.
     
  7. photodon

    photodon Member

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    There are two different sized copal 3's

    I have a newer (serial #83XXXXX) 24" Red Dot in a new Copal three, and it works great. Mine has the elements on both sides of the shutter

    I also have a "4 Ilex shutter and it would never fit my 24'

    Talk to the people who mount lenses in shutters for a living, and they will tell you what works, and how much it will cost to make it work.

    I machined a shutter (Packard) box with a varible iris that holds all of my barrel lenses
    or shuttered lenses that I want to test with out mounting on a lens board.