510 Pyro

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Todd Niccole, May 18, 2009.

  1. Todd Niccole

    Todd Niccole Member

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    I've been coming to the attention of 510 Pyro and it may be what I'm looking for in a developer. But, why isn't this stuff commercially available? Photographer's Formulary doesn't seem to offer it despite some other Pyro developers. From what I remember reading once mixed it lasts a real long time. Is there a commercial scource or am I stuck having to buy and mix the basic ingredients? Plus, I'm a little confused on how to make this stuff from what I've read online where it lists TEA twice as an ingredient, lastly TEA to make 100ml. I would appreciate clarification on this... Thanks.
     
  2. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    you want to go to http://pyrostains.blogspot.com/ .
    it is jay defehr's website. he is the person who came up with
    that developer as well as a few other things. the site is
    still active ( last post may 1 2009 ) ... i am sure all your questions
    will be answered there ...


    good luck!

    john
     
  3. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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  4. Michael Kadillak

    Michael Kadillak Member

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    If you have not tried pyrocat yet, I would recommend it as it has been around a long time and I find it performs perfectly. Furthermore, Sandy King is here now for questions.
     
  5. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    I've made some wonderful prints from negatives developed in 510 pyro. I found that it performs especially well with semi-stand development. I liked one so much that I sent Jay a print of it.

    However, there is a great deal more general stain with it than with pyrocat. I agree with Michael that if there's no reason to use that particular developer, I would just use pyrocat. It's clean, cheap, readily available commercially from many sources, and there is just no better developer around. I see no advantages to 510 over pyrocat. I also found that the claims of shelf longevity I'd heard to be greatly exaggerated. My pyrocat stock solutions have lasted a lot longer than my 510 did.
     
  6. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    Sometimes with hobbies "not" running with the crowd is part of the fun. Working where there is little information, figuring out the right times, temps, and method gives as much enjoyment as the hobby itself.

    While it's over my head, I have to believe Ron Mowery has a great time making his own paper and printing on it, Sandy working out all the different Pyrocats foir different styles of shooting or developing, and Pat Gainer working on different chemical formula's are just a few examples of people going on their own trek in the hobby.

    I think there are a fair number of people here that like going their own way with the process. It's one of the things that make this site so interesting.

    Mike
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2009
  7. john_s

    john_s Member

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    I mixed up some 510 a couple of years ago and tried it a couple of times. I found its film speed quite low but always thought I should try it again. I'm curious about your shelf life comment. How long did it last, and was it in glass?
     
  8. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    I was curious about the longevity of the formula myself. I also use HC110 and it has a long shelf life.

    Using Fred Pickers test method, I get full speed (400) from Tri-X 120, but only 200 from HP5 in 4x5.

    I've got a batch of 510 from August 2006 that I save and run a roll through from time to time. It is all but gone. Film still looks good, but I also have some HC110 from about that same time that is still good and I've read the Rodinal users don't think Rodinal isn't even warmed up at that age.

    510 Pyro being a one shot developer was one of its selling points for me. I use it in the same manner I use HC110, mix one shot, only what I need, and dump. Using two part developers isn't hard, just wasn't what I was used to.

    I'm not sure how I end up with so many partial bottles, must be old age.

    I generally store developer in 12 oz. brown glass bottles no matter the type, but will use plastic bottles if that's all I have.

    Anyway, I probably wouldn't use a developer just because of it shelf life or lack of one. The finished product is a better gauge as to its desirability.

    If you still have the 510, I wouldn't be scared of using it.

    Artcraft sells the 510 kit "double" in size due to measuring ease of Phenidone at the larger quantity. I generally buy a double kit.

    The single formula is

    TEA 75ml
    Ascorbic acid 5g
    Pyrogallol 10g
    Phenidone .25g
    TEA to make 100ml

    Granted not many use 510 Pyro, but it does let you make nice negatives.

    Mike
     
  9. Todd Niccole

    Todd Niccole Member

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    Thanks for all your suggestions. As recommended, I'll try Pyrocat and see how that works for me then perhaps 510 Pyro if I really like the results of this type of developer.

    Regards,

    Todd
     
  10. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    Todd

    Since you a new guy here....after you try the pyrocat, if you still want to try 510, let me know and I'll send you enough to develop a couple tanks of film.

    Mike
     
  11. Todd Niccole

    Todd Niccole Member

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    Thanks Mike. :smile:
     
  12. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    No problem. Another great thing about APUG, everyone is willing to help anyone looking for information.

    Just let me know...

    Mike
     
  13. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    It lasted about 9 months, but it began to darken significantly at about 6 months. It was in a plastic cough syrup bottle. Jay DeFehr mixed it and sent it to me that way. Of course, each time I used some there was more air admitted to the bottle. Perhaps it would last longer in a glass vessel with the air sucked out of it with a wine bottle vacuum seal. If I used it again that's certainly what I would do.

    It's terrific developer, and very convenient, since you only have to dilute one solution. When I ran out of 510, it was just easier to get some pyrocat sent to me than it was to order all the materials and mix my own 510. But I may try it again now that I know there's a commercially available kit for it.
     
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  15. John Bond

    John Bond Member

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    I began using 510 pyro a couple of years ago, not so much because of any claims of being superior to anything else, but because it introduced me to making a developer from scratch, and because it lends itself to experimentation with my own times, temperatures, agitation, etc rather than simply following a cookbook approach. I think we sometimes get carried away with finding perfection and pitting one developer against another. There is no magic bullet. There are many good formulas out there and I would recommend rather than trying to make detailed comparisons between any developers, find one that works well and play with it in every way you can think of.

    510 pyro has its own look which I find very appealing, I think because of a slightly steeper curve in the mid- tones, with perhaps some sacrifice of shadow detail. It has a very long shoulder so highlights do not become blocked. It is very forgiving of missed exposures. It does well with stand and semi stand development. It is easy to mix and does have a long shelf life. For me, it has always run out long before it has lost its usefulness.
     
  16. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    A quick one - did you use pyrocat or pyrogallol?
    I have the cat but no gallol. How does the ratio go cat/gallol or does it matter?
    I would love to use the 510 w microfilm at high dilution but hesitate to use the 'wrong' one for the brew.
    Murray

     
  17. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    The reducing agent in 510 is pyrogallol. However, I didn't mix the batch I had. It was sent to me by the developer's inventor, Jay DeFehr.
     
  18. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    Ah - OK - it was the pyrogallol. Jay uses the cat in Hypercat, but i wondered if one could switch between the 2.
    510 is one of the few pyro devs that actually mentions TechPan (or microfilm) as a target for this developer. I want something for ImagelinkHQ, which is a close relative of TP. I have a supply of pyrocat but not the gallol.
    I have read somewhere what the ratio between the cat/gallol is, but am still confused. Is it 2:3 or 3:4 gallol to pyrocat? Or the samw w/w?
    The molecules are so close. 2-OH to 3-OH radicals. See Wiki.
    Murray


     
  19. sanking

    sanking Member

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    The answer is no, you can not substitute pyrocatechin (catechol) for pyrogallol in 510. The alkaline acceleration in 510 comes from the T.E.A. which gives a working pH of around 9.6, about the same as PMK using sodium metaborate as the accelerator. Pyrocatechin will not kick in until about pH 10.8 or more so if you made the substitution you woulld have a vey low energy developer.

    Sandy King




     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2009
  20. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    Thankx.
    Muray
     
  21. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    I don't think the dark color causes any issues with the 510. The oldest batch I have is quite dark, but still works well. While not as dark, my HC110 is a lot darker than it was when it was new.


    Do you guys know if Rodinal or Pyrocat get dark as they age? I know both of these are long keeping too.

    Mike
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2009
  22. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Rodinal is noted for how dark it can be and still work like new. I doubt that anyone can tell you exactly how dark that is. It is usually used up before then.
     
  23. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Pyrocat-HD mixed in eithr water or glycol does not change much in color with time. If it does become very dark it very likely will have lost some of its working strength.

    Pyrocat-MC, which is only available mixed in glycol, slowly darkens as it ages but this does not appear to have any effect on its working strength. I have a liter bottle that is now three years old and is the color of a light pinot noir. It works as well today as it did when freshly mixed.

    Sandy King
     
  24. paul_c5x4

    paul_c5x4 Subscriber

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    The recipe for 510-pyro is pretty short and appears to be economical on ingredients and in use. Pyrogallol, whilst expensive, is available in small quantities from my usual supplier, but not TEA. I have been able to locate a source for 99%, minimum quantity of 500ml, and very expensive (but they will ship free of charge). Adding up the cost of each ingredient, I'd be looking at around £70 for 500ml.

    I can not use that amount within a reasonable period, so...
    Does anyone know of a UK source for a small quantity of premixed 510-pyro ?
     
  25. john_s

    john_s Member

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    Paul, TEA is used in all sorts of manufacture, and can be found in unexpected places. It's used in soaps, shampoos, detergents, cosmetics and various other things. I buy mine from a small maker of specialist lubricants for industry (Melbourne, Australia). I take my own container and they give me 5Litre for $20 (Australian dollars that aren't even real dollars). 5L goes a long way.

    TEA can also be used in some other developers (e.g. Ryuji Suzuki's and Pyrocat-MC).
     
  26. mealers

    mealers Member

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    I've been looking into exactly the same thing Paul, but the price of raw chemicals for 510 Pyro means I'm quite happy with Pyrocat HD for the time being although I shall be watching this thread with interest.