A couple of lith questions

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by mrtoml, Jun 5, 2008.

  1. mrtoml

    mrtoml Member

    Messages:
    548
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Location:
    Sheffield, U
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I have started doing some serious lith printing (it is becoming quite addictive). However I have a couple of queries that searching has not provided definitive answers to.

    First I am keen to try a textured art paper, but it looks as if the only one left is Bergger prestige fine art portrait (aka silver supreme). This is very expensive at £35 for 10 sheets of 11x14. It seems that the best alternatives were Kentmere fine art/Luminos tapestry or Foma chamois, but these are all discontinued. Is this correct? I could coat my own paper, but I have heard that lithing with liquid emulsion is not that great (resulting in brittle emulsion that flakes off the paper).

    Second I am slightly concerned about the archival nature of lith prints. I understand from reading Tim Rudman's books that it is wise to tone them - even more so than conventional prints. However, I like the colours I am getting before toning and want to preserve the colours I have if possible. The solution Tim advises seems to be Agfa Sistan. Is this still being made - I know it is still available? And is it not possible to tone lightly in, say, pretty dilute selenium without there being a significant shift in colour, but while making the print more archivally stable and deepening the blacks? And if so what sort of times and dilutions would we be talking about?

    As ever, thanks in advance for any advice.

    Cheers.
     
  2. Philippe Grunchec

    Philippe Grunchec Member

    Messages:
    292
    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Location:
    Paris (Franc
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Both Fomatone 532 and 542 have a very nice "Kentmere Art Classic" surface, but without this shine I found unpleasant.
    Why don't you try Adox Adostab, or Moersch Loboflo: must be very dilute selenium (I think Amaloco in NL has something similar).
     
  3. mrtoml

    mrtoml Member

    Messages:
    548
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Location:
    Sheffield, U
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Thanks, Philippe. I will check these products out.
     
  4. mrtoml

    mrtoml Member

    Messages:
    548
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Location:
    Sheffield, U
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    It looks like the Adostab will do the trick on the second question and it is available in the UK (from retro photographic).

    On the question of the 532 and 542 papers: the Silverprint website states that 542 is discontinued(?) and there is no mention of 532. Retro does not list either. Does anyone know where one can get these papers in the UK?
     
  5. Gary Holliday

    Gary Holliday Member

    Messages:
    826
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    Belfast, UK
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    532 sold out quicker than 542. Nobody in the UK has stocks of 532. I have managed to track down rolls of 532 in the Czech rep and Freestyle...that should keep you going for a while. There is a paper called 532 II but the samples I received didn't have a textured surface.

    I'm using my existing stocks of Kentmere Art Deluxe/ Classic and Foma Chamois 532. But all my future orders are for the Bergger paper. Ilford are planning a possible return of Art Classic next year but I don't know how successful they will be.
     
  6. mooseontheloose

    mooseontheloose Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,491
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Location:
    Kyoto, Japan
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    "On the question of the 532 and 542 papers: the Silverprint website states that 542 is discontinued(?) and there is no mention of 532. Retro does not list either. Does anyone know where one can get these papers in the UK?"

    I noticed that too on the Silverprint site. However, checking other sites in Europe and the US makes me think that it is just 'out of stock', not discontinued (I hope I'm not wrong here! I love the 542 and can't wait to try the 532 once it's in stock again...)
     
  7. Philippe Grunchec

    Philippe Grunchec Member

    Messages:
    292
    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Location:
    Paris (Franc
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    542 is Chamois, 532 is Off White: I love them both, even for "normal" printing (not lith). They are multigrade!
     
  8. mrtoml

    mrtoml Member

    Messages:
    548
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Location:
    Sheffield, U
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Do you think the Bergger is worth the expense? It seems to be the only 'art' paper that is currently easy to get hold of (in the UK) without shopping abroad.

    I hope that 532 and 542 will be available again soon from the usual places.
     
  9. Philippe Grunchec

    Philippe Grunchec Member

    Messages:
    292
    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Location:
    Paris (Franc
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I meant Lobostab: Loboflo is just a wetting agent, sorry.
     
  10. Gary Holliday

    Gary Holliday Member

    Messages:
    826
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    Belfast, UK
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 532 and 542 will not return, hence the release samples of 532 II. 542 stocks remain because it was not as popular as 532 due to the very creamy base.

    I purchased some Bergger CLF additive which is used to whiten the tone of "Silver Supreme." My intention was to see if it can whiten the base of the Foma papers but I've been working on other prints recently...will report back!

    The paper base which was used by Kentmere and Foma is no longer in production. There is demand for these papers, a lot of people are coating their own paper, so I would like to see all the manufacturers club together and purchase some new paper surfaces.

    Producing these papers on a large scale is tricky and not straighforward although Bergger seem to have been successful with their Silver Supreme using an Arches cotton rag paper. I've quizzed Linhof Studio who distribute Bergger in the UK to state if they know how long the paper will stay in production, but they have no information apart from "That it will continue."

    To answer your question Mark, the Bergger paper is very lovely stuff, worth the expense? I would say yes as it is major hassle coating the paper yourself..I wouldn't have the time. It has gone up in price by 15% due to currency fluctuations. But you may waste a lot of paper producing lith prints.
     
  11. mrtoml

    mrtoml Member

    Messages:
    548
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Location:
    Sheffield, U
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Thanks, Gary. Useful, if somewhat depressing, information.
     
  12. Jarvman

    Jarvman Member

    Messages:
    733
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Location:
    Cardiff, Uni
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I bought some Kodak rapid selenium toner to tone some Fotospeed lith prints and there's still a really noticeable colour change at 1:40. That's toning for 4 mins. Will try 1:60 and 1:80 when i get a bigger milk carton!
     
  13. Philippe Grunchec

    Philippe Grunchec Member

    Messages:
    292
    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Location:
    Paris (Franc
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    When I want no colour change, I dilute mine 1+250 !
    Sad news Amaloco (NL) is going out of business...
     
  14. mrtoml

    mrtoml Member

    Messages:
    548
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Location:
    Sheffield, U
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Thanks for all your replies.

    I just got an email from Nigel Dear at retro photographic and he told me that when any existing 532 and 542 is gone, it's gone. There will be no more.
     
  15. carmenloofah

    carmenloofah Member

    Messages:
    82
    Joined:
    May 3, 2008
    Location:
    London
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Foma fomatone warmtone is an alternative to consider, I love it after having started out like you looking for a textured paper. Selenium toner worked nicely for me where I had a little too much gold/yellow tones, however it did show up some imperfections and I also learned how delicate the lith process is, showing up some finger prints etc form paper handling. And just read that I should not dry mount them but not sure if that's from a commercial perspective only....gold toner looks beautiful with Foma Fomatone warmtone if you want a cooler look...
     
  16. mrtoml

    mrtoml Member

    Messages:
    548
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Location:
    Sheffield, U
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Thanks carmenloofah.

    I am already using Fomatone warmtone paper. I agree it is really nice and tones well whether lithed or not. Just received another 50 pack of it this afternoon.