A thought about how film fits in our world.

Discussion in 'Ethics and Philosophy' started by markbarendt, Feb 13, 2010.

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  1. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    Okay,

    So last night my wife and I went out to Valentine's day dinner.

    Slow food, great experience.

    Two things (besides being out with my wife) made it really special.

    1 - The pace of the meal.
    2 - The type of meal.

    Did I mention slow. 2 1/2 hours start to finish, 8 or so small courses served one at a time with live music. It started with non-alcoholic Prickly Pear cactus bubbly, included a bread made with cattails, a scrumptious curry soup, a sorbet to die for just before the main course, and ended a chocolate coconut hot toddy. All raw and wild foods, purely vegetarian fare.

    The evening was truly special because of it's pace and because it isn't normal.

    (Side note - Just for giggles I tried this pace again today with more normal rations while I was working around the house and ate half my normal portions and felt very satisfied.)

    The group putting this on is a non-profit and the restaurant is a small but growing concern that helps support the non-profit through good old fashioned capitalism. It is even moving from 2 to 3 days a week open. They teach cooking and about wild food gathering and I don't know what all else.

    So what does this have to do with analog photography?

    This restaurant is bucking the normal hurry-up trend of our world and riding on the back of the green movement, the back to the land movement, vegetarianism, and good old peace-loving liberal (hippy) thought.

    My thought is that analog photography's future success is probably based on the elephants in the room that nobody is talking about, and no I'm not talking about digital, I'm talking about the lack of time we all seem to face and the changes in social interaction/communication.

    My question now is "what social trends can we surf on going forward?"
     
  2. Brian Legge

    Brian Legge Member

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    Film is physical. As more of our world goes digital, there will be an element which wants more more permanence. Film based photography hits this niche. Film is also a romantic, artistic novelty; people selling both Holga and Lomo cameras are already exploiting these markets. I think there will always be niches interested in film photography from these perspectives.

    With the departure of 600 film, the bigger question in my mind is how long will making film be profitable enough to keep companies doing it? If demand drops far enough, some suppliers won't make enough money to justify the expense of manufacturing film. That could spike film prices, pushing more people out of it, and kicking off a feedback loop.

    I think the biggest thing supporting film right now is the volume of cheap gear out there. Buy a digital camera for $1000 or a relatively complete medium format system camera for $600 and have $400 to cover consumables.
     
  3. Christopher Walrath

    Christopher Walrath Member

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    DEVIL'S ADVOCATE (sort of)

    Digital is physical. The more of the world that goes digital, the more it goes digital. For someone who has the knowledge and the wherewithal to be meticulous in their workflow, there is a permanance in digital, just as someone who doesn't know their Tri-X from a hole in the ground can ruin a reat neg. Film I think is slightly more than a niche, but it has definitely found a new place in the photograhic scheme of things. Sure, there are old film pros gone to digi that still shoot film for personal enjoyment. Just as many that have converted all together.

    Film will continue to become less profitable until eventually there are only one or two producing it and then the price will rose like the price of a pack of Marlboro Menthol Lights.

    And I don't think it is a matter, so much, of supporting film as it is in using it and related consumables. It's not only the diff between the expensive digi ear and the less expensive (unless you're getting a Leica or a Hassy) analog gear, but it's the time involved and the way it is spent. There are those, as most of us are, that prefer the hands on approach to film processing and enlarging. There are those with a penchant for poor eyesight and carpal tunnel syndrome that would rather sit down for hours on end in post processing.

    Film and digital are two completely different monsters. But both require countless hours in practice and training in order to acheive any amount of profiency.
     
  4. mopar_guy

    mopar_guy Subscriber

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    Last night I had steak and country fried potatoes. If I took my wife out to a place that served a vegetarian meal, I would end up sleeping on the couch. Film fits in just fine in my meat eating world too.:rolleyes:
     
  5. maderik

    maderik Member

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    Alas, analog film is not vegetarian. Gelatin is made from by-products of meat and leather production.
     
  6. sun of sand

    sun of sand Member

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    twitter.com lol

    there is no green in trends
    I consider it a trend
    movements are for those wanting to move
    true green environmentalism has always been

    "normal hurry-up trend"
    which is it
    normal or a trend
    I'm not so sure myself
    I'm inclined to believe it's actually a trend
    I think people WANT TO APPEAR busy and the easiest way to do so is say that you are
    The real dangerous people are those actually filling up their day with whatevers to be constantly busy

    and I think it's terrible that many people who still consider themselves to be of the unbusy are beginning to believe they're doing something wrong
    and wanting to move


    Why is a 2.5 hour meal special?
    I cannot think of any reason
    Seems trendy
    a slow movement

    Rickshaws are great for those not wanting to move on their own and the rickshaw operator lives off of em
    if the operator can walk and haul how lazy are you wanting to just sit there
    who experiences life
    who respects it
    You cannot be green nor an environmentalist if you decide to sit

    "because it isn't normal"
    Who says normalcy isn't special
    seems life has lived for an awfully long time to get to this point and all of a sudden it needs to be SpEcIaLL
    Sounds like ADD


    cossack asparagus cattails don't taste like anything
    I eat them right out of the muck
    your cattail bread is just bread from cattail flour
    not saying flour isn't special
    but cattail flour isn't any more special
    it's only different


    Film fits because we've made room for it
    Stop making room and it doesn't
    not always a bad thing to stop making room but sometimes what you give up can be your undoing
     
  7. DanielStone

    DanielStone Member

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    film(specifically LF) makes me slow down, and really LOOK at the image.

    about 50% of the time I end up packing up the camera and moving on because, well, I don't feel "moved" by the image I see after really looking at it on the GG.

    shooting 35mm is generally another story, I generally shoot that on motor drive(mostly for portraits of friends, doing my best to catch expressions as I joke with them whilst shooting)

    but the patience factor of film is something that has taught me to really appreciate MAKING and image, rather than TAKING one. personally, I wish I could see more people willing to MAKE an image that MOVES them, rather than just recording something they SEE and have FOUND. different strokes....

    mark: meal sounds like it was delish! I'm more of a 'meat and potatoes' kind o' guy, but thats just me :smile:

    unfortunately, the closest I get to female attention at the moment is from my ever-doting mother and my sister who's away at school. no g/f or wife for me, yet, but I'm in no rush, I don't feel lonely on Valentines Day, I'm shooting film tomorrow, so I'm content :tongue:

    I'm not much of a fan of the "green" movement, but I can see where recycling and cleaning up of one's environment, with less pesticides and chemicals in our foods can be a good thing, to a point. I'm glad my drinking water is fluorinated, I've been to some places where it isn't, and it isn't always white shiny smiles :D

    -Dan
     
  8. lightwisps

    lightwisps Subscriber

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    I am also on another board that is mostly digital. I find it hilarious the af times that the forum has articles about making their digi images look like film. Want it to look like film the solution is easy. Use film.

    At our gallery we sell very few digital prints, but a lot of analog prints. We are getting known for carrying them.

    In my opinion, analog prints have much more depth than digital.We sell more B/W than Ilfochromes, but the depth and brightness of the Ilfochromes blow a lot of people out of the water. They have never seen one
     
  9. Rick A

    Rick A Subscriber

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    Film has always fit my lifestyle, no matter what speed I've had to live at. But I'm currious, where is the restaurant--Durango, maybe? I've taken many(and given many) survival courses, and actually like cattail root, it tastes way better than 'possum, but not nearly as good as pricklypear fruit. Did they serve nopalitos?

    Rick
     
  10. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    http://www.turtlelakerefuge.org/
     
  11. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    I think what Twitter, facebook, and cell phone photos really allow is uninterrupted social banter.

    I like the line from Jimmy Buffet that I think says "Why don't you text me with your master plan". That pretty well sums it up for me. There's little thought, it's just noise that keeps tweeters from feeling alone. A tweet's or text's or cell phone snap shot's only real significance is that regardless of what is sent, the message says, "I like your company/companionship". It's a social thing, not a "significant" thing; background noise if you will.

    The environmental movement and photography compete for time in that banter.

    Thought and observation take time and don't require much motion.

    First, it's old school social "twitter". 2.5 hours flirting with my girl.

    Second, it takes less food; I might lose a couple pounds.

    There is truth in your metaphor. In my mind though hiring a Rickshaw beats hiring a taxi. They are both personal luxuries, like photography.

    One thought that I've had about analog is it's green in the electrical sense and the fact that the hardware is nearly the antithesis of planned obsolescence and the modern economic model.

    I agree, also consumerism run amok.

    It turns the bread into a gourmet item, raises the perceived value.

    This is the crux of my question.

    How can we help make analog photography more important in everybody's social world?
     
  12. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    I'm not a vegetarian but the older I get the more I'm sliding that way.

    Being "Green" doesn't necessarily mean staying in the dark ages or going back to the farm.

    Being green is about being smart. Here's an interesting example http://www.ted.com/talks/stewart_brand_proclaims_4_environmental_heresies.html
     
  13. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    This is one great example of success, we can build on this.
     
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  15. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    Sounds good to me.

    In the UK there is a TV hypnotist named Paul McKenna. He has written various self help books e.g. for people wanting to diet or give up smoking, etc. These come with hynosis CDs to listen to.

    The diet book is based on just three simple ideas: 1. Eat what you want; 2. Only eat when you are hungry; 3. Stop eating when you are full.

    The problem now is that we tend to eat to quickly and we don't notice the signals our bodies are sending out telling us we are full. Also many of us may have grown up with a waste not, want not attitude encouraging us to finish what is on our plates.

    The book suggests eating slowly, even putting down the fork between mouthfuls as this makes it easier to sense when we are full.

    I am not surprised that you were satisfied on half rations when eaten slowly like this.


    Steve.
     
  16. Rick A

    Rick A Subscriber

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    Thanks Mark. I lived in Montrose for five years, and used to take the kids to Durango all the time. I think its time to visit again.

    Rick
     
  17. stradibarrius

    stradibarrius Member

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    Mark, I think what you described for your meal sounds like a "fine dining" experience opposed to the cookie cutter places. Your correlation makes sense to me. As far as social trends/changes going forward here are some recnet thoughts I have had.
    I think that environmental conscience and concern springs from economic prosperity...Countries that have good economies seem to have environmental consciences becuase they have desposable income and time. Third world countries and politically opressive countries make it so difficult for the people to eek out a living that things like the environment, charity etc. are bypassed by trying to make ends meet. I have been fortunate enough to travel in many "third World" countries and it seems to be a universal truth. Poor economies equal poor social conscience.
    As our government becomes more oppresive and evasive I think we will see a decline in our social conscience as well. This is just my opinion and observations.

    Many of us love film because it forces us to "regress" and do for ourselves what the modenization of our world steals. I have often longed for the return to a slower time with the advances in the important things like medicine still moving forward..
     
  18. sun of sand

    sun of sand Member

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    If "poor people" have a poor environmental awareness why is that this green movement and local food and all this essentially tries to turn back the clock to simpler times ..poorer times
    i don't know, man
    "to "regress" and do for ourselves what the modenization of our world steals. I have often longed for the return to a slower time with the advances in the important things"

    I thought you just said "environmental conscience and concern springs from economic prosperity"

    The shakers quakers amish and indians and whomever else probably give of themselves more than some hollywood actor at the soup kitchen
    Soup feeds for a day
    a barn can provide for a lifetime
    one ladles food
    another hammers and lifts and plows


    I would say the richer you are the guiltier you may feel and this is why you try to save some face by appearing to care through your actions
    If you're rich cause you hunted whales and suddenly you notice there are no more whales to hunt the efforts made in trying to restore the population do not make you an environmentalist
    The person buying the whale products who notices the same is not an environmentalist either

    Getting rid of all your appliances in order to save energy with new ones does not make you an environmentalist
    A hydrogen car isn't green if you buy 4 of them


    Eat what you want
    do not overeat

    To me, that's stewardship

    overeating is not just not eating beyond fullness but consuming more than you need
    you don't need to be full to do nothing
    Some may say this IS the same thing but I'd bet that eating more than is needed leads to a more permissive culture which leads to eventual overeating -fullness- and obesity ..mindlessness

    "Also many of us may have grown up with a waste not, want not attitude encouraging us to finish what is on our plates"

    I believe this to be just a perversion of meaning
    parents worried about wasted money more than wasted food
    to eat everything you're given would be total destruction
    -The world has provided ALL we eat ..we don't go out and eat it all just because it's "on our plate"-
    Don't WASTE what has been provided
    Waste does not -only- mean to leave behind to spoil what has been provided but to not take into account future use
    overconsumption of resources whatever they may be
    "Wise use of one's resources will keep one from poverty" is IMO the way to read the verse
    "For want is nexte to waste, and shame doeth synne"
    "willful waste makes woeful want"
    "he will waste nothing; but he must want nothing."

    people always want to play to the letter of the law only and forget/deny whatever the "spirit of judiciousness"
    its the loopholes people love

    Electronic gadget that gives me ripped abs with no effort! Gastric bypass!
    I only ate everything on my plate! ...your plate was a satellite dish
    its a loophole we've created
    if you have ate too much you can destroy the evidence without incriminating yourself by doing physical activity
    Nobody believes it's going to work
    They still buy
    It's a lottery ticket


    The Green movement
    and ALL "movements"
    are gastric bypass equivalents




    "perceived value" -no comment needed
    "2.5 hours flirting with my girl." ..you need to eat while doing so?
    "it takes less" no comment needed
    "In my mind though hiring a Rickshaw beats hiring a taxi." How? the only real difference is cost
    saying the rickshaw doesn't emit greenhouse or etc is a loophole. The truth is that you can walk but instead make someone else expend more of their own energy to make up for "your" laziness
    It's not green in the strictest sense
    you can never achieve TRUE "green Leed Platinum status" if you constantly create loopholes
    that's a mere facade
    "They are both personal luxuries, like photography." I'm not saying you cannot enjoy some luxurious things
    I'm saying look at what WAS luxurious and look at what is NOW
    At some point someone in the future will be able to say not having to breathe on ones own is a personal luxury
    seriously
    Everything we have is luxurious already

    "One thought that I've had about analog is it's green in the electrical sense and the fact that the hardware is nearly the antithesis of planned obsolescence and the modern economic model."

    Film can not be considered green
    any consumable cannot be considered green
    Digital is probably much more green than film photography
    digital cameras need to be manufactured but film cameras had to be as well
    memory cards are free after initial costs
    digital electronics/computers are certainly not green but they're not much less in comparison
    planned obsolescence is what the consumer has created!!
    YOU DO NOT NEED TO BUY A NEW CAMERA BECAUSE THEY MARKET ONE
    Stop buying and they may listen and stop planning on it
    Consumers are buying more luxuries
    6mp then 10mp now 22mp
    Joe Blow doesn't need that
    Joe blow is wasting resources if they purchase one
    documenting a beach cleanup or photographing flowers with mo betta realness one doesn't make him an environmentalist
    It makes him confused

    "How can we help make analog photography more important.."
    You don't really
    You just do what you do and "keep it clean"
    if actions speak louder than words doing what you do is all you can do
     
  19. SilverGlow

    SilverGlow Member

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    Lots of Idealization, Romanticization too, lots of subjectivity, religion, and illogical bias ;-) For permanence, shoot digital or scan your negatives. That binary representation of your picture can last centuries longer then film, a print. Digital capture is just as physical as silver halide capture; either you're affecting pixels or silver halide grain BOTH physical menifestation. There can be, and often is a process when mastering a digital picture, and often it can take a lot of time depending; as is the case with the wet process. So if you love the slow process, film and digital can give that to you.

    I shoot film, and prefer film because I like the look. I couldn't care less about the developmental process of my rolls of film. Sure I like doing it and it's a lot of fun, but that is an aside at best; not the prime directive...so why lose site of the prime directive? It's the picture!

    I think when the process becomes more important then the prime directive, one needs to step back and re-evaluate why they do what they do.

    Too much about the journey, and not enough about the reward.

    It's the picture, stupid! ;-)

    The process of fine dining with one's sweetheart, before dinner drinks, chit chat, verbal foreplay, the several courses is not a good analogy of the picture making process, IMHO. In the former, the prime directive is to enjoy one's company, to woo, to exchange good feelings, and in fact, the process is the intended result, the reward....with the latter, it's about the picture.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2010
  20. Curt

    Curt Subscriber

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    Mark, my Endocrinologist would like me to be a vegetarian! But if I did that on a regular basis I wouldn't have had the Buffalo burgers at Goldfield. The problem I see is how invasive digital is in my life, I start with an iPhone then get software and buy songs and more software and look at a new computer and scanner and printer and more conversion software so I can convert movies of my favorite photo DVDs to MP4 so I can waste more time reviewing them on my little phone window. But there are some good apps like lightmeter and the massive dev. chart and GPS and flicker and Utube and Mobile photoshop, and back to the printer and software, it's so invasive.

    My Kodak 2D and Seneca cameras and the Calumet's and RB's and Nikon's don't ask for more software, they just want a good supply of good old fashion film. There is no question about it digital is here to stay, this site and all of the interaction I do here is a result of the movement. Film is crying to stay in my life, I never regret having to buy film and I hope it doesn't come down the antique car that sits in the garage and is taken out rarely just for kicks. I haven't bought a digital camera since the Sony Mavica 500 disk camera came out. I'm making plenty of room for how film fits into my life and learning to cope with digital.

    Curt
     
  21. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    It may not be a good analogy for you, but not for me. It's only just about the picture from the viewers perspective.

    What's wrong with photography being a pass-time?

    So I may spend days or weeks in prep, hours of driving, hiking while lugging a 4x5 , and the first climax is over in 1/50th of a second. Then drag it all home and develop the film and then make 5 practice prints over two days before, bam, with a 30 second exposure and 5 minutes in the messy stuff I'm satisfied?

    If the journey isn't a significant part of the fun, it's a job.
     
  22. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    I think I heard somewhere that some organization said Buffalo Burgers hold the status of "Honorary Vegetables".

    We are all coping.

    My hope here is to find ways to make film photography fun and social.
     
  23. MattKing

    MattKing Member

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    In general, I find photography to be fun and social.

    For me, the preferred flavour is the still film variety, complete with darkroom printing and/or transparency projection.

    Like just about any other potentially fun and social endeavour, many will approach it in a different manner than I do, but the interaction with them can add to the enjoyment.

    Just be confident in what you enjoy and experience, and willing to share it with others, and film will fit well in your world, and may move (back?) into the world of others.

    Matt
     
  24. CPorter

    CPorter Member

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    Film fits my world because I am generally a patient man. IMO, film requires patience, a willingness to wait through the process from exposure to development to printing. Of course the other side of the coin is the got to have it now crowd----------------not that there's anything wrong with that, just saying.
     
  25. nolanr66

    nolanr66 Member

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    Any husband that would take his wife out to a lengthy dinner at a slow pace is a good husband. The time spent sharing with you wife is an investment in your relationship. Good job. My own wife is many things to me but she is also my best friend and I like and want to spend as much time with her as possible. As far as film goes I shoot E-6 but I do not think it is particularly green. I have no idea if film is greener then digital or the other way around. It probably varies depending on the person and how they use the various systems with consideration to the waste ie, electronic waste, chemical waste, ink, paper etc, etc.. But since we are on the green agenda I figure it is the responsibility of us all to live as green as possible. It's the smart thing to do.
     
  26. Worker 11811

    Worker 11811 Member

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    You could put a pile of $hit in a box, stamp the word "digital" on it and people would buy it because digital $hit is better than analog $hit.

    What people don't realize is that 35mm film has the equivalent of something like 40 megapixels of resolution. Film, in general can capture a dynamic range of something like ±20 stops. (Correct me if this is wrong.) There is no digital technology that can come close to that. The best digital cameras which cost thousands of dollars are producing just over 20 megapixels right now. Correct? The dynamic range of a digital camera is an order of magnitude smaller.

    Digital photography does have its benefits. It is easier to do because you don't have to master the darkroom. It is more convenient because you don't have to wait for development. You never have to worry about running out of film. Due to vast economies of scale, prices are falling all the time.

    We have photographs which are more than 100 to 150 years old. The vast majority of our digital pictures are less than 1/10 that. There is just no way to say that digital photographs have anywhere near that level of permanence unless they are printed on archival media. You can not count on hard disks and digital memory chips to store photographs for long term. Not only are they just not reliable enough, they become obsolete very quickly. It would be a challenge to retrieve a photograph stored on a floppy disk just a few years ago. If you happen to have a 5-1/4 inch floppy dis, I DARE you to retrieve the data from it today. It would be a challenge! There is just no guarantee that even the best storage medium we come up with in the next few years will be able to match the permanence and longevity that we have been able to achieve with film.

    I'm sorry but nothing digital can ever hold a candle to what can be done with film.

    Yes, the masses will gravitate toward the convenience and economy of digital photography but I do not think film will ever go away completely.
    200 years ago, people who wanted portraits of their family had to hire an artist to paint their portrait. Well, photography has largely supplanted that market but it has not disappeared completely. People who want artistic, life-size renderings of their family and friends STILL turn to portrait painters. (They often work from photographs! :wink: ) It is more expensive. It is more time consuming and good artists are harder to come by but you can STILL hire a portrait painter.

    I think there will still be photography in 100 years. It will be more expensive. Fewer people will know how to do it. But people who want the quality, permanence and emotional realism that film photography can provide will still be able to do it.

    In a nutshell, it will go back to being exclusively a rich-man's game.
     
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