ABC Pyro

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Aggie, May 11, 2003.

  1. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  2. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    LOL...aggie, pyrogallic acid is a mild organic acid in powder form, does not matter which way you do it. the pyrogallol is the alchohol derivative and holds no danger.
    Since I know you know all this, I am sending a virtual cup of coffee from starbucks straight to your house.

    jdef, the "true" ABC formula has always had A as the pyro solution, B as the sulfite and C as the activator (Carbonate, etc) so the way the new instructions are worded are the "correct" way to do it, it all depends on what they put in the bottle labeled A. As a rule of thumb you should always add the activator last, so the developer does not loose activity by oxidation.

    On the "traditional" ABC formula the mixing ratios are as you say 1:1:1:7 but depending on how they mixed their stock solutions the ratios they require might be correct. It seems they have almost quadruplicated the concentrations so you can get more working developer with less stock solutions. I would not trust this approach as the sulfite goes bad in a few months, unless you are planning to use the 50 gallons in two months, I would not trust this developer as it is.

    Seems to me a call to the 800# is in order to clarify all these questions.
     
  3. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    The fountainhead of ABC pyro knowledge is Michael Smith @ http://www.michaelandpaula.com. If you get your chemicals at http://www.arcraftchemicals.com you can talk to Mike Jacobson, who is very familiar with Michael Smith's formulae and will make you a kit of chemicals in the right proportions.

    It does not make any difference in which order you put in the solutions as long as the carbonate (solution C) does not come into contact with the pyro (solution A) until you're ready to begin development.

    The correct proportions for normal or N+ development are 1:1:1:7. For negatives of scenes with "extreme contrast" (Michael's words, not mine) use 2:1:1:15.

    BTW, the term "pyrogallic acid" is a misnomer. Pyrogallol is a phenol, not an acid. That's why it's so easily absorbed through the skin. There is a phase it goes through during manufacture where it is pyrogallic acid for a while but then it's transformed into pyrogallol.
     
  4. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    BTW I have gotten much better results with Pyrocat HD than with ABC.
    ABC is too prone to streaking and the base + fog is much greater than Pyrocat HD. You might want ot give this developer a try. If you dont want to mix the powders you can ask mike to make you the solutions also.
     
  5. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    Thanks, Jorge. I'll try it. Good to know that Mike can mix for me. I've been meaning to give it a shot for some time. The question, though, was asked in reference to ABC, the superiority of any other developer notwithstanding. If you want to know about ABC, Michael is the best source of information.

    BTW, I've developed hundreds of sheets of film and dozens of rolls of film in ABC pyro and I've never had any problem with streaking. Not ever. Not even once.
     
  6. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (c6h6o3 @ May 12 2003, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Thanks, Jorge. I'll try it. Good to know that Mike can mix for me. I've been meaning to give it a shot for some time. The question, though, was asked in reference to ABC, the superiority of any other developer notwithstanding. If you want to know about ABC, Michael is the best source of information.

    BTW, I've developed hundreds of sheets of film and dozens of rolls of film in ABC pyro and I've never had any problem with streaking. Not ever. Not even once. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Well pyro, you must be the only one, I have it on good authority even Michael gets streaking once in a while.

    As to Michael being the "authority" I guess I would qualify it as him being its most ardent proponent, but by no means he is the only one who knows about this developer. I also have worked with pyro for many years as well as many others on this forum, as a matter of fact I was reading a book yesterday which was given to me by a friend many years ago and it was published in 1946 by Dupont. In it are the "Defender" developers and the first one is ABC pyro.

    Michael is very experienced and has used pyro and ABC for more than 30 years, and I agree his advice is very valuable, but on the other hand I am always surprised at the reaction him and his followers have when a person suggests and alternative which might be better. It is almost as if one is commiting heresy against the prophet for suggesting it. If the shoe had been on the other foot and Jay had asked about problems with Pyrocat HD I am sure you would not have had any complaints if anybody had mentioned ABC as an alternative.

    So please, lighten up with the Michael and Paula bit, ok? it makes it very uncomfortable for other members and me when we cannot discuss anything else outside the way that is supposed to be with respect to the use of ABC, azo or amidol if it is not the "way" Michael said.

    As to my suggestion to Jay to try Pyrocat HD it was done out of personal experience. I do brush developing, this technique yields the most even negatives that can be possibly obtained. I have been doing it for years and with many developers, and even with this technique I would ocassionally get streaking with ABC. So if you have never gotten any streaking, I am glad for you, but your experience is not common to many others who have used it and complain of this problem.

    I respect Michael very much for what he has done in photography, but I have a hard time with fanatism. This is a public forum created precisely for the exchange of ideas and it bothers me and many other members in this forum when the subject of ABC/azo/Amidol is approached and any dissenting opinions or suggestions are motives for complaint because they do not follow the "approved" Michael and Paula method or that if Michael did not say it then it must be wrong.

    I dont kow what tests Michael has done, but I have mixed ABC with phenidone, metol, hydroquinone as well as done many others tests with other pyro developers. I am sure many like Sandy King and others have done the same in search for the perfect developer, so to say that Michael is the best and one and only source of knowledge for ABC is inaccurate.

    Well I will finish this rant by saying this is my opinon as a member of APUG NOT in my capacity as moderator.
     
  7. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jorge @ May 12 2003, 07:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Michael is very experienced and has used pyro and ABC for more than 30 years, and I agree his advice is very valuable, but on the other hand I am always surprised at the reaction him and his followers have when a person suggests and alternative which might be better. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Michael recommends that people use whatever developer works best for them. Don't drag him into this discussion.