About C-41 processing, the alternative way.

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by /dev/null, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. /dev/null

    /dev/null Member

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    Hi all,

    I've been developing color negatives for over a year now. Mostly with my JOBO Processor and the Tetenal Kit on 38C/100F.

    I was quite happy with the results, until I started with 6x12 format (120 rolls). I had strange streaks and stuff on 6x12. Even when I developed my 6x7 and 6x12 formats at the same time (JOBO extension tank in the JOBO Processor). Then I tried to develop in the Paterson tanks and reels, without the JOBO at 38C/100F. I had less streaks and stuff, but I still did not like what I was seeing.

    So I started reading and I found out there was an alternative way of processing C-41 at 30C/86F. The development went up from 3.15" minutes in the JOBO tank at 38C to 8 minutes at 30C in my Paterson tank (just in the sink in water on 31C).

    I can only say I got much better results! No streaks or strange color shifting. And I don't have to struggle with these damn JOBO reels. It is much easier to process the whole thing at 30C and 8 minutes first developer.

    This is what I wanted to share :smile:

    Bye.
     
  2. RPC

    RPC Member

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    You likely have some crossover, which is a certainty at lower temperatures, and don't realize it. Have you compared prints from these negatives with properly processed ones?

    In my opinion you should have tried to solve the problems you were having at the normal temperature instead of changing time and temperature.
     
  3. keyofnight

    keyofnight Member

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    Yeah…I'd like to see scans/prints of these negatives. I've seen widely varying information about crossover at lower temperatures, and it'd be nice to get some definitive info about this.

    In other words…:munch:
     
  4. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    Tetenal is normally very conservative in their instructions and they specifically mention 30°C processing in their manual. Chances are that results will be not nearly as bad as some may suggest.
     
  5. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Member

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    And Rollei mentioned using theirs at 20 degrees C, but you can clearly see problems in the images I posted in the Digibase thread processed at that temperature.
     
  6. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    IMHO there is a profound difference between Tetenal and Rollei. Tetenal is a company which makes these chems and has a strong back ground in photo chemistry, whereas Rollei is only a shell company which rebadges products, sort of like Polaroid. From what I read, their C41 kit is a rebranded Fuji kit, and to my best knowledge Fuji never released a C41 kit for use at 20°C.
     
  7. /dev/null

    /dev/null Member

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    I can post some results of the 38C development images and the 30C images, will look a few up. The only thing I find hard to understand: I ONLY have these problems with 6x12 format and not with the 6x7 formats...Even when I developed the 6x7 and 6x12 reels at the same time in 1 JOBO tank in the processor. I will post the images I processed in the same reel.
     
  8. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    I am glad you have or appear to have solved your problem but I fear that using the lower temp may not have been the real solution to your problem. I see no reason why a Jobo reel and tank or 38C would affect 6x12 and not any other 120 film in other sizes such as 6x7

    The chemistry does not know that you have changed the temp and the Jobo reel doesn't know that it has 6x7 in it so behaves properly but chooses not to do so with 6x12 in an unholy alliance with 38C. It is the same 120 film after all

    There has to be another reason why this has worked

    pentaxuser
     
  9. /dev/null

    /dev/null Member

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    True, that is why I cannot figure out why this only happens when I develop 6x12. Even when I have 6x7 and 6x12 in the same tank at the same time...!

    I am just about to upload images, just give me a few minutes and you can see what I am talking about. Hope someone can figure out what is going on, appreciate the help.
     
  10. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    A number of folks have reported C41 problems with streaking and color spots, and I had these problems myself. They went away as soon as I started using a stop bath. Today I still process at 38°C but never without a stop bath. I use self mixed Agfa 304 as stop bath, which is a cheap acidic fixer that both stops development and takes some fixing load off my BLIX.

    If that is too much fuss, any Acetic Acid or Sodium Metabisulfite based stop bad will do the job. PhotoEngineer recommends against Citric Acid, so be careful if you use commercial stop bathes.
     
  11. /dev/null

    /dev/null Member

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    Here some examples. With the last two images I even used 'old' (2 weeks) Tetenal developer, was used already a few times. And I also had these problems when I developed at 38C in the Paterson tank by hand. Same issues as with the JOBO processed ones. So form some reasons I 'solved' it by developing at 30C by hand in the Paterson tank and no JOBO Processor.

    Cut out from a 6x12 JOBO Processed at 38c
    [​IMG]


    Full image 6x9 JOBO Processed at 38c (no problems here, compared to rest)
    [​IMG]


    Cut out from a 6x12 JOBO Processed at 38c
    [​IMG]


    Cut out from a 6x12 JOBO Processed at 38c
    [​IMG]


    Full 6x12 and Paterson Processed by hand at 30C (no center point filter used on lens)
    [​IMG]


    Full 6x12 and Paterson Processed by hand at 30C (no center point filter used on lens)
    [​IMG]

    Full 6x12 and Paterson Processed by hand at 30C
    [​IMG]
     
  12. tnabbott

    tnabbott Member

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    I've starting using a stop bath (also based on PE's suggestion) and it has worked very well. I wonder if the results from the 30C development for longer time might be that the developer gets exhausted? Something akin to standing development?

    BTW, nice pics!
     
  13. /dev/null

    /dev/null Member

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    Thanks :smile:

    I just bought a Fuji Press Kit, it uses the Bleach and Fix in seperate baths, so I should add the stop bath then just *after* the first developer? I once used normal tapwater as a stopbath, but that didn't resolve this problem. Could I use a stopbath I use for b/w development for this?

    btw, I found this document some time ago, that is the reason I gave the 'alternative' way a go.

    http://paulagortazar.blogspot.nl/p/tetenal-c-41-rapid-negative-kit-review.html
     
  14. chuck94022

    chuck94022 Subscriber

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    You say "JOBO processed" but you aren't specific. Does your JOBO have a lift? Are you introducing chems through the lift, or pouring in by hand and then loading on the rotation motor? If the latter, your marks on the 6x12 image look exactly like marks I got on my 4x5 sheet film developed in a JOBO tank with hand agitation. The problem in my case was due to pouring the chems in too fast, overflowing the funnel, and having fluid enter through the top edges of the funnel, rather than through the bottom. This causes developer to streak down the film from top to bottom, which is a disaster. If this is the case, you need to pour more slowly, so that the funnel doesn't overflow. It is much harder to overflow the Patterson tank, because the funnel is much bigger and the top edges are visible.

    If this is not the case, I might suggest you add a 5 minute prewet (another PE suggestion I believe) which will help with the introduction of the developer. I do a prewet now with c-41 and no longer ever see any irregularity, when it dogged me before.

    If none of the above are an issue, I would ask about your agitation speed - you might need to adjust your rotation speed, but that is way down on this list of troubleshooting steps for me.

    The nature of your marks (especially the 6x12 in the JOBO) look a lot like a developer issue, not a bleach fix issue, as mine was, but I'm no expert.

    Regarding the temps: I tried Tetenal C-41 at 86 degrees and got cross over. Didn't like it, went back to 100 degrees. Perfect color.

    Good luck!
     
  15. /dev/null

    /dev/null Member

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    I do the pouring manually (no lift) and I think you found the root cause here of my problem. Indeed I pour the fluids in quite quickly, cause in the past I did it too slow and than certain parts were developed more than other parts. The marks on the images look like fluids running.

    Thanks for this one! I will do a new batch the weekend and then pour more carefully :smile:
     
  16. chuck94022

    chuck94022 Subscriber

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    If you have sufficient dexterity, you can use an external funnel for pouring. Use one that is fairly large, extends out from the top of the Jobo, so that if you spill or overflow, it ends up outside the tank. But I will say between stripping off the Jobo lid, pouring, putting back on the lid, etc., it takes some practice to do it with - ahem - fluidity.
     
  17. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    Chuck, I don't think the issue comes from pouring, as a stop bath after the CD step prevents these funky patterns regardless of pouring style.

    My impression is that as BLIX gets used its pH rises to the point where it doesn't stop development any more. If this is the case, fogging is likely to happen. A stop bath will prevent this for good, since first it stops development at once, and then subsequent washes before the BLIX/bleach will wash out most of the remaining color developer.
     
  18. chuck94022

    chuck94022 Subscriber

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    Looking at his Jobo processed, hand filled 6x12 image, and seeing the pattern of image corruption, which looked exactly like mine, I have no doubt this is a pouring issue. I had it with fresh chems, exactly like his. This is why I asked him how he filled. It is an issue with the way the Jobo integrated funnel/light trap works. Pour too fast, you go over the top of the funnel,and the fluids rain down all over the film.

    If you take a Jobo tank lid, unattached to a tank, and pour a bunch of water in it too fast while observing the flow underneath, you'll see this. Looks just like the flow out of a shower head, absolute disaster for any chance at smooth development.

    This has nothing to do with old blix, I'd bet a dollar on it... We'll know soon enough as /dev/null (surely a fellow Unix comrade) reports back.
     
  19. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    All I can write is that what he shows in image 3 is something I kept getting and which disappeared once I started using a stop bath. Interesting enough I never got this with E6, only with C41.
    If all our messages go to /dev/null, are they going to help anyone ? :tongue:
     
  20. hgernhardt

    hgernhardt Member

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    you -vv > /dev/null 2>&1 &

    :smile:
     
  21. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I've said it over and over, that C41 will yield far inferior results at low temps. This is a diffusion issue, where chemicals give a kick start to the top layer before the solutions even reach the bottom layer. So, you have low contrast, muddy pictures that will give a pastel result. That is what I see here.

    There are two possible issues. A prewet is always indicated for C41 to prevent pinholes and streaks. If the streaks persist, then a stop bath is indicated as well. And, a Jobo without a lift is one of the worst offenders for this type of problem.

    PE