Acutance and Grit with D76 and D23 on FP4 and Tri-X

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Mustafa Umut Sarac, Jan 26, 2014.

  1. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    How can I reach to controlled acutance with D76 and D23 ? And How can I control for higher acutance at for example shadows especially ? I will try to use a Leica Mini Zoom Vario Elmar 35-70 and Olympus XA if I need to change the asa setting , not possible with Leica, I will use Ilford FP4 and Tri X. and I will try to take dark images in shadows. I want to see the gritty noise with high acutance distributed in the deep and highs of bones of human hands for example.

    Can you give me asa settings , development times , tempereatures and dilutions ?

    Umut
     
  2. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Acutance is not the same as grit ("grit" is usually just pronounced grain). Read some good sources about acutance and how it has been defined over time. To increase graininess, use a fast film with big grain, increase exposure, increase development and use a developer with a higher pH or low sulfite, or both. If you want to use D76 or D23, dilute them.
     
  3. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Hello Michael,

    I want grit and acutance together.
     
  4. pgomena

    pgomena Member

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    I would suggest using Rodinal. Sharp, gritty grain when used with Tri-X in the right way.
     
  5. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    "Acutance" has several components, including edge effects. If you want exaggerated edge effects, try a dilute Metol developer with minimal agitation. However it is difficult to generalize. Different films respond differently to different developers. This is a highly complex subject with many variables.
     
  6. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Does reticulation give a acutance effect or the acutance effect is totally different ?
     
  7. JW PHOTO

    JW PHOTO Subscriber

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    First, I can't speak for your Leica Mini, but I have own several Olympus XA cameras. My wife bought me one when they first came out and I loved the design and ease of pocket carry. As for picture quality? I was never satisfied with any of the samples I had until I had a aperture setting of between f8-f11. My Minox 35EL and Rollei 35 with Tessar were always better. Now, that's just my opinion and I'm sure others will tell you different, but that's exactly why I tried several different XA's. Very nice design, but not great at wider f-stops. The only reason I point this out is that you seem to be wanting something the XA might not be able to deliver. If you are just wanting "snappy" picture of 5x7 size it might be alright, but going beyond that I think would be on the edge. I have had some very nice landscape shots at 11x14 from the XA on a tripod at f11. I said nice, but not what I would call "razor" sharp. For easy carry, sharp-snappy shots I prefer the Minox 35's or my Rollei 35's. Like I said earlier, that's just my opinion. Gritting noise - high acutance (look) would have to be something like Rodinal at 1:25 - 1:50 or D-23 with 65-70 grams of Sodium Sulfite instead of 100 grams. Do some testing and you'll find what you need. Have fun, John
     
  8. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    HP5+ or Tri-X in Rodinal 1:50 with aggressive agitation should do it...
     
  9. BradS

    BradS Subscriber

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    NO! they are completely different.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2014
  10. dpurdy

    dpurdy Member

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    If I was going to do what it seems to me you want to do is first I would shoot on 35mm Kodak Tmax 3200 or Ilford Delta 3200 and I would process the film in beutlers or Rodinal 1-100 and I would process it so that it needs a contrast boost in printing. Then I would print it on a high contrast setting with VC paper.
     
  11. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    They don't make Kodak 3200 anymore... Delta it is! Lol
     
  12. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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  13. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Looks like way over sharpened/scanning artifacts.

    Why don't you just try the same thing? Underexpose your Tri-X and push (ie overdevelop) in D-76 1:1.
     
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  15. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    There is only color Fuji Film here, Michael. And due to dollar gained %40 in one month , I have to stop ten times to import film. If I become extremelly sure if something works out , I will invest money and 5 weeks waiting.
     
  16. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    I wouldn't worry about it too much. People draw way too many conclusions about films and developers based on posted scans of negatives etc. You can't really tell anything that way.
     
  17. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    True, that image looks like another I posted with a woman in it, but to avoid issues and out of respect for Mustafa's perspective and beliefs I won't post it here.

    But D3200 film will do just fine, or pushing Tri-x to 1600 in Rodinal (which I've done) will work.

    Sorry about the cost gain, strange that the dollar to us has fallen to crazy lows... Yet still high compared to many countries.
     
  18. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Is it possible to gain high acutance with Pyro Developer ?

    Is it possible to gain high acutance with Pyro Developer ? I think pyro is the only developer I would use in many styles.

    ps.Stone ,I am still taking pictures with my Bolex C8 and its an endless endavour. After some try with norwood director , I found it is strange and I am not so intelligent to solve it. I decided to use my XA as a Lightmeter. Its strange to hold bolex with left hand , looking with right eye and taking with right hand and cable. Dollar was 1:1 and now 1:2.4 in 5 years or longer.

    ps2. Michael , I dont have any chance to see these chemicals , processes effects without internet and screen.
     
  19. JW PHOTO

    JW PHOTO Subscriber

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    Mustafa,
    Now I understand what look you are going after. The XA will be fine for an image like that. I was thinking you were after critically sharp high resolution negatives with a hint of grain. What your after can be made with higher speed films like Foma 400, which has fairly well defined grain, and push processing. Also, a little more vigorous agitation might help make the grain more noticeable also. I mentioned Foma 400 simply because it has grain, but the pattern doesn't seem as random as some films are. Also, I'd still use something like Rodinal or a Metol type developer with very little sodium sulfite and more sodium carbonate.
     
  20. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Thank you JWPhoto and all.
     
  21. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Rather than Pyro I'd again suggest a dilute Metol formula such as a Beutler-type (as suggested by Gerald above) or FX-1.
     
  22. NB23

    NB23 Member

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    I would try a very warm developer. 35c and above. D76 1:3 or even Dektol.
     
  23. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    That would be I'll advised, B&W emulsions aren't designed to handle high temps like that, you'll end up stripping off the emulsion entirely...
     
  24. NB23

    NB23 Member

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    Try it instead of spreading false info. It won't strip the emulsion at all.
     
  25. JW PHOTO

    JW PHOTO Subscriber

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    Yes, I have process the original T-Max 100 at over 100 F and the benefits were excellent grain, faster developing times, better contrast control and no pink color cast to the base. I think I got it from an old "Darkroom Techniques" magazine article, but can't remember for sure. One thing I do know for sure is that the emulsion did not slide off the base and showed no ill effects at all. I believe I was using Kodak HC110 at the time, but it could have been Edwals FG7 too???
     
  26. NB23

    NB23 Member

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    Developing in extra warm developer is an old, known trick. I think it might give Umut what he is trying to achieve.

    stoneNYC has this habit of trying to sound like an expert but just shows he has no experience.