Adding new lenses for Voigdlander Bergheil

Discussion in 'Plate Cameras and Accessories' started by renes, Sep 5, 2009.

  1. renes

    renes Member

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    Hello to everyone,

    It is my first post on APUG forum.
    I just bougth two Voigdlander Bergheil cameras: 6x9 with Heliar 105 f/4.5 and RADA film back and 9x12 with Heliar 150mm f/4.5 and 6 film holders. Both are in wonderful condition and Heliars a coated (dated from 1962 and 1955).
    I want to use them with b&w landscape photography and need to buy a few lenses more with shutters - preferably TH Cooke, Bausch&Lomb, Dallmeyer or Dagor lenses. For each camera I look for wide ange and long lens: for Bergheil 6x9 around something like 65mm and 165mm focal lenght and for Bergeil 9x12 around 75-90mm and 210mm.

    I know they should be compact to be able to fit the hole in front standard, for Bergheil 6x9 the outer rear lens diameter should not be larger than 32mm and for 9x12 one larger than 40mm. The shutters also can not be to large becouse will not base on the front plate - for 6x9 sholud be not wider than 59mm, for 9x12 wider then 73mm.

    Need your suggestions which lenses should I fook and go for, I do not have much experiences with vintage lenses. Any hepl will be apreciated.

    BTW, my Heliar 150mm f/4.5 seems it will not fit to my 9x12 Bergheil becouse its rear lens diameter is 43mm but front hole diameter is 44mm - there is no space for the ring you screw on the rear to tighten the special flange to the lens but (the ring) must go into the hole. I have compared it with my 6x9 Bergheil and the ring goes just right into the hole. Probably I need Heliar 135mm f/4.3. My Heliar 150 is in mint condition, if someone have 135mm Heliar version in very good condition (or the same focal lenght - Cooke, TH Cooke, Bausch&Lomb, Dallmeyer) and wants to exchange, let me know it please.

    Piotr

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Welcome to APUG.

    It's the shutter size that'll be most important, the 6x9 should be a rim-set Compur 0, and they are standard. A 65mm Super Angulon almost certainly won't fit, but a an Angulon would, or a WA Dagor in a Compur.

    The 9x12 again will depend on the shutter, the Dial set Compurs were never standard so it's hard to say much. but you'd need to find the attaching mounts.

    Ian
     
  3. renes

    renes Member

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    Is it any way I can be sure before purchasing whether the Angulon 65mm f/6.8 wide angle lens will cover the Bergheil's 6x9 size? Is not this 65mm focal lenght too wide for this camera? How can I measure it?
     
  4. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Look on the Schneider websites, here's one of them :D

    It does cover and full details are given.

    Ian
     
  5. ntenny

    ntenny Member

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    Is it just the dialsets? My 9x12 Bergheil has a rimset Compur---does that mean I can swap in anything in another rimset Compur of the same nominal size? (#1, I think.)

    -NT
     
  6. renes

    renes Member

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    Ian,

    I was not presise. I mean how can I know before purchasing the lens, how wide focal lenght my Bergheil 6x9 or 9x12 or any plate camera can accept giving me possibiltity of making pictures without any limitations ?
    I want to buy and adopt Angulon 65mm f/6.8 but I am not sure if I can use this focal lenght with my Bergheil 6x9...
    excuse me for that maybe simple question.
     
  7. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Really you need to look and see what lenses Voightlander sold with the camera, in the 20's/very early 30's.

    The 65 mm Angulon has small front & rear cells so will fit, it's whether it will focus, and if you can make a plate to fit it.

    It's the same answer as above, but the restriction is what rear cell will fit through the mount/hole.

    The rimset lens is usually a Compur 1, so a 90mm Angulon will fit with an adaptor plate as it's in a Compur 0, I have tried mine on my 2nd Patent Etui, and an unbranded 9x12, and I can focus etc.

    But the issue for both of you is the mount to fit the Bergheil's

    Ian
     
  8. renes

    renes Member

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    Ian,

    The mount (special flange) I can make but the question is if I am able to focus with Angulon 65mm...
     
  9. verney

    verney Member

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    What is the minimum distance from ground glass to that flange?
     
  10. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Try focusing with a 50mm enlarger lens, in comparison a 65mm will be easier.

    As the front standard slides right back into the body there's no reason why you can't focus a 65mm.

    A far bigger problem is the 65mm f6.8 will be difficult to ficus on the ground glass, and you may need to make a focus scale. You need to find and try one before spending money.

    Iab
     
  11. Anton Lukoszevieze

    Anton Lukoszevieze Subscriber

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    Sometimes with wide angle lenses the fold-out bed can come into the angle of view, unless you use front rise.
    Hope that makes sense?!
     
  12. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    The 65mm SA certainly gets the bed in shot on my Wista 54DX if I don't use front & rear tilt, but as 65mm on a 6x9 or a 90mm on a 9x12 shouldn't be a problem.

    Ian
     
  13. JPD

    JPD Member

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    ...or stop the Heliar down to 5,6 and 1/3 (or 6,3 if the Heliar has the older aperture scale) and see how it looks.

    I have a 6,8/130 Dagor on a 6,5x9 Avus, and Steinheil Orthostigmat 6,8/135 on a 9x12 Avus, and have no trouble focusing. But some people might have.
     
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  15. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    A lot depends on the focus screen, it's not much different whether 6x9, 9x12 or 5"x4" formats, but in practice the wider angle lenses like the 90mm Angulon & 65mm are harder to focus, there's more of a hot spot in the centre of the screen.

    Ian
     
  16. Philippe Grunchec

    Philippe Grunchec Member

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    I have a Voigtländer Bergheil 9x12 with a 6.8/135 Radiar on Compur: both lens and shutter work perfectly, and I'll try the lens on my Toyo 45AII.

    Does someone know which filter thread this lens has? Is it 25.5x0.5?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2009
  17. renes

    renes Member

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    I will measure it but tell me where exactly should I place the lens - how far to draw the bellows on bed?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2009
  18. verney

    verney Member

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    Distance is measured from the lenses aperture blades (not shutter even though it's almost the same) to ground glass when bellows are racked all the way back.

    I asked you this to know if your camera can focus 65mm lens to infinity. You need bellows draw equal to focal length for focusing any lens to infinity, in other words 100mm of bellows extension focuses 100mm lens to infinity. 2x focal length of bellows draw focuses any lens for 1:1 macro shots.

    I'm slightly worried that a 65mm lens would get bed of your camera into to the picture.

    'Any lens' doesn't include telephoto designs, that's a different story.
     
  19. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Voigtländer and Schneider were both very early in adopting what has since become the standard shutter sizes, so even a dial-set Compur with a lens from either of those two have a very good chance of matching newer shutters. It's certainly the case for Heliars and Angulons.

    A 65mm Angulon should do as a WA lens for the little Bergheil . and you can use it "converted" as a longer lens by removing teh front cell (not wonderfully sharp, but useable).

    Same with a 90mm Angulon for the 9x12cm camera.

    BTW, the 150/4.5 Heliar lens was an optional lens on the 9x12cm Bergheils - mine has that. The bayonet flange should fit on that...

    A while ago a group of us on the German large format forum (www.grossformatfotografie.de) had extra flanges made for both 6x9 and 9x12 Bergheils.
     
  20. renes

    renes Member

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    You mean the bellows and lens have to be placed on the bed's slide/rails (just at it's beginning), not in the box?

    If so (see the picture, the back base of the bellows/lens arm is placed at the beginning of the slde/rails) than the minimum distance from the front surface of ground glass to the lens blades is about 60mm.

    If I rack the bellows a bit back, to have the lens blades right at the beginning of the rails, than the distnce shorten to 48-50mm.

    [​IMG]
     
  21. verney

    verney Member

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    I'm not familiar with Voigtländer cameras. If you can focus accurately when lens standard is inside the box then fine.
     
  22. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Don't worry about getting the standard close enough to focus a 65mm lens on the 6x9. It works fine on mine - and a 90mm lens on the 9x12.
     
  23. renes

    renes Member

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    Ole,

    Here are the two photos, one is Bergheil 6x9 fited with original Heliar 105m f/4.5 lens - you can see the crew mounting ring (which thighten the bayonet flange to the lens) and it goes just into the hole of the lensboard. The socond one is Bergheil 9x12 with Heliar 150mm f/4.5, the outer rear lens covers almost all the hole space and there is not enought free space (maybe 1mm) for the crew mounting ring...

    The interior diameter of bayonet flange is 44mm, the mounting Heliar 150mm rear lens is 43mm... Far more, the Heliar 150mm shutter diameter is aprox. 79mm, but the lensobard is 73mm - so the lens does not lean on it. I do not know how it can work on your Begheil 9x12 with Heliar 150mm... you must probably have larger bayonet flange and larger hole in the lensobard.

    Could you check it?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2009
  24. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    I can check it, but not before next week. I'm in the middle of the Norwegian Sea at the moment...
     
  25. renes

    renes Member

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    Ok, than I will wait with selling or exchanging my Heliar 150mm.

    Do you use with your Bergheils longer focal lenses (165mm-240mm)?

    BTW, where is the best place to buy shutters?

    I see a lot of vintage lenses with accurate size of the rear lens that can fit to Bergheil and yet there is enought place for the mounting screw ring, but most are fited into shutters with much larger attaching mount and when you screw the mounting ring on them they go out of the hole lenspoard space. My Heliars rear lens diameter are just a bit lesser than outer diameter of the attaching mount element. Looks perfect design. That gives me hope I can use chosen and favorite lens by adopting it to the right attaching mount (with just a bit larger mounting srew than diameter of the rear lens)...

    but will I have to make such attaching mount or can I buy it too?

    I would be grateful if you give me an advice what steps should I make with looking for proper lens with shutter (e.g. Goerz Dagor 165-180mm) which I am going to adopte to Bergheil 6x9? How can I be sure I will be able to adopte the chosen lens to Bergheil? It seems that there are a lot issues I should take into consideratiom before I make decision to buy any of them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2009
  26. Philippe Grunchec

    Philippe Grunchec Member

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    How should I use the three positions marked Z, D, M on the Compur?