Agfa Neutol-WA Formula?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by john_s, Oct 19, 2005.

  1. john_s

    john_s Subscriber

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    Since it looks as though Agfa black and white products will soon finish, I'm interested in making something as close to Neutol-WA as possible. We all know that an MSDS is not a formula, because the exact amounts need not be shown, and some ingredients might not be shown if they are in small proportions and/or are harmless.

    I have several Neutol-WA MSDS documents from different jurisdictions, and to comply with local laws they show different ranges for the components (some ranges much tighter than others), and in some cases they show a code that seems to indicate some info about the amount.

    What I have come up with using the tightest ranges is (concentrate):

    water 55-60%
    Potassium sulphite 15-20%
    Potassium carbonate 15-20%

    Potassium bromide 0.1-1% (code PA3, meaning it's 3% or more, and NJ4, meaning it's greater than 1% ? So maybe the 0.1-1% is wrong.)

    Hydroquinone 1-5% (no code PA3, meaning it's less than 3%)
    EDTA tetrasodium salt 1-5% (code PA3, meaning it's 3% or more)

    PA3 = Pennsylvania Non-hazardous present at 3% or greater
    NJ4 = New Jersey other = non-hazardous included in 5 predominant ingredients greater than 1%

    One of the codes contradicts the stated quantities. I'm not worried about the bromide, since a bit extra is often added to warm tone developers. Any suggestions for the quantities of hydroquinone and EDTA t.s.s?

    FWIW, the density of the working solutions is given as:
    1+7 1.050 to 1.056
    1+11 1.034 to 1.040

    Does anyone have any further ideas for a formula, in particular the quantities for the ingredients present in small concentrations? Or maybe other ingredients not shown at all?
     
  2. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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  3. Jim Chinn

    Jim Chinn Member

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    Agfa 123 Brown tone developer:

    Water- 750ml
    Sodium sulfite 60g
    Hydroquinone 24g
    Potassium Carbonate 80g
    Potassium Bromide 25g
    Water to make 1` ltr

    This is very similar to Neutol with the use of the sodium sulfite instead of potassium sulfite.
    I don't know what EDTA tetrasodium salt is. I assume that since this is an original Agfa formula it is probably Neutol with differences having to do with requirements for long term packaging of a liquid concentrate.

    This is from Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook. He states it works well with chlorobromide papers.

    I don't remeber the exact chemistry but I do know that a worm tone developer needs to use exclusively hydroquinone and the amount of bromide determines the warmth of tone up to the point the level of bromide included induces fogging.

    I have made this and if I recall it worked really well with (sigh) Agfa paper. I quit making it becuase of availability of products such as Zonal Pro and Neutol. Looks like its time to get out the scale again.
     
  4. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    EDTA tetrasodium salt is a calcium, etc. sequestrant/water softener - not needed with most mixing water.

    This is not correct, Ilford ID-78 is an excellent warm tone developer and it contains both Phenidone and Hydroquinone.

    There are other excellent warm tone developers that use Catechol instead of Hydroquinone. Edwal 120 is an example.

    Another excellent warm tone print developer is Suzuki's DS-15. D-15 is a Metol/Ascorbic Acid Print developer. See:

    http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/print-dev-recommend.html

     
  5. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    John, the Agfa Neutol WA MSDS information you list (above) is not consistant with the 2004 MSDS:

    http://www.darkroomshop.com.au/new/darkroom/Agfa_SDS/MSDS Neutol WA Concentrate.pdf

    Note that the 2004 MSDS lists the ingredients for a Phenidone/Hydroquinone developer. (The 1998 MSDS listed ingredients for a Hydroquinone developer).

    Thus, the 2004 version of Agfa Neutol WA (liquid) appears to be similar to Ilford ID-78.

    http://www.apug.org/forums/article.php?a=23
     
  6. Jim Chinn

    Jim Chinn Member

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    Yup, I was wrong. looking back through the Darkroom Cookbook there are a couple of other warm tone developers which use phenidone and one that uses catechol.
     
  7. john_s

    john_s Subscriber

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    OOPS!
    Yes, I had that MSDS too. I missed it when I collated the above info. Phenidone is listed as 0-1%

    I am interested in Neutol-WA particularly as it has such a long life in a Nova processor. With topping up as necessary using fibre paper (quite a bit of topping up, actually), it lasts almost for ever.

    The metol/ascorbic acid warm tone developer of Ryuji Suzuki seems not be recommended for a Nova processor, according to Ryuji's instructions. I assumed that was because of a shorter life. He does recommend the phenidone/ascorbic cold tone developer for Nova use.

    The hydroquinone-only developers of Agfa are also discussed by Ryuji, and they don't appeal to me since they require lots more exposure and longer dev time.
     
  8. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    John, Ian Grant says that ID-78 has a long dish life, so I would expect that it would work well in a Nova. PM Ian and ask him.
     
  9. Ryuji

    Ryuji Member

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    Did anyone measure pH of Neutol-WA? With MSDS info, it's not hard to make a developer that works similar to it given the actual pH. Also very useful are measured values of reduction potential (platinum electrode potential re Ag/AgCl reference), and pBr.

    I would think DS-14 is perfect for that. DS-14 would give slightly warmer side of black with AGFA papers, Fortezo, etc. and neutral black with cold tone papers.

    One reason I don't recommend DS-15 for a Nova standby developer is because the processing result is not as stable as with DS-14, which can go for months by replenishing. But if you are willing to replace the bath more often, there's nothing wrong with that.

    If you want to get really warm orange brown tone without toning, I see no other way to do. But then if you develop prints in those warmtone developers, you are more likely to lose shadow density when toning the print in polysulfide toners, so you are practically limiting the toning options. I personally prefer to develop in DS-14 and tone, rather than use warm tone developer.
     
  10. john_s

    john_s Subscriber

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    Thanks for your comments, Ryuji. Now that I think about it, I suspect that with the likely demise of Agfa MCC paper which responds nicely to Neutol-WA, your suggestion is a good one.
     
  11. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Gevaert G262 is another good warm-tone developer, tone depends on dilution. It's been mentioned in earlier threads, but it seems the recipe isn't posted yet.
     
  12. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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  13. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    I have posted the formulas for Gevaert G-261 (Glycin/Hydroquinone) and Gevaert G-262 (Hydroquinone only) in the APUG Chemical Recipes Section
     
  14. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Thanks Tom, for Johns benefit I'll add that ID-78 has very similar properties to the liquid form of Neutol WA, with tonality, image colour and speed, and has better keeping qualities.

    Beware as the formula has been published incorrectly in the US and the mistake perpetuated many times in various publications over at least a 35+ year period, (and also by a contributor to this thread), the correct level of Bromide is 4.5gms KBr in the stock solution.

    It does seem to have a remarkable resistance to aerial oxidation, and will certainly last in a tray for about 30hrs, so probably very much longer in a Nova system. However as I usually exhaust it with throughput very much sooner I cn't predict life span in a NOva tank, but it should be good.

    Ian
     
  15. Bob F.

    Bob F. Member

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    Thanks for that info Ian. By coincidence I have only 1 more mix of Neutol WA left in the bottle for my Nova and all the chemicals to make ID-78 in the cupboard.

    Wonder if the new warmtone developer from Ilford will be ID-78?!...

    Cheers, Bob.
     
  16. Manfred

    Manfred Member

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    Hello!

    The following Neutol WA clone was published in the German Foto & Labor in 1996:

    Neutol WA F&L
    Achtung: Rezeptur für 1000 ccm Konzentrat! Recipe will give 1000 ccm of concentrate
    Wasser – water -(50 °C) 300 ccm
    EDTANa4 10 g
    Kaliumsulfitlösung – potassium sulphite - (45%) 50 ccm
    Hydrochinon – hydriquinone - 45 g
    Phenidon 1,5 g
    Kaliumsulfitlösung – potassium sulphite - (45%) 450 ccm
    Kaliumcarbonat – potassium carbonate - 45 g
    Kaliumhydroxid – potassium hydroxide - 15 g
    Kaliumbromid – potassium bromide - 10 g
    Wasser auf 1000 ccm
    pH-Wert (bei 1+9) 10,70—10,90, Verdünnung für den Gebrauch: 1+7 bis 1+14. For use dilute 1 + 7 to 1 +14
    Die Kallumsulfitlösung (45% w/w) wird auf zweimal zugegeben, damit die Entwicklersubstanzen geschützt sind und sich zügig lösen. Entwicklungszeit 1—1,5 min. Das Konzentrat ist in Glasflaschen gefüllt mehrere Jahre haltbar.
    Developping time 60 to 90 seconds. Stored in a glass bottle the concentrate will keep several years
    Source: Foto & Labor, 3/ 1996, page 17

    Manfred
     
  17. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Thank you Manfred. This concentrated formulation contains the same ingredients (with the understandable exception of Potassium Hydroxide) shown in the Agfa MSDS for Agfa Neutol WA.
    http://www.apug.org/forums/article.php?a=23

    It is a very similar formulation to that of Ilford ID-78 - the proportions are a bit different and Sodium compounds are used (in ID-78) instead of Potassium.

    The amount of Phenidone in the WA concentrate is considerably reduced compared to ID-78.

    EDTA, Tetrasodium salt (a sequestrant) is not called out, but that is an unimportant difference.

    A perhaps more important difference is the reduced (for the working solution) amount of Potassium Bromide.
     
  18. john_s

    john_s Subscriber

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    Thank you very much, Manfred. The formula is much better than guessing from the MSDS. It is somewhat similar to the ID78, when you take into account the dilutions. The amount of phenidone is not so very different to ID78. Maybe Agfa's traditional warm tone developers with hydroquinone as the only developing agent were the basis for Neutol-WA, and they added just enough phenidone to make the developer active enough to be a general purpose developer. There's a lot less carbonate than in ID78, but helped along by some hydroxide. From an industrial point of view, it's probably very economical to make.

    Does the EDTA-4Na increase the life, or is it just to prevent sludge forming?

    Ryuji asked about the pH of Neutol-WA. According to the Australian MSDS, the pH of the normal working solution (1+7) is 11.0 approx, the pH of the concentrate is 11.7 approx, and the specific gravity is 1.375 (concentrate).
     
  19. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    EDTA-4Na is a sequestrant (i.e. a water softener). It does not increase the solution life.
     
  20. Sal Santamaura

    Sal Santamaura Member

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    Whatever the formula might be, A&O Group just informed me that Neutol WA is among the AgfaPhoto chemicals it will continue to manufacture.
     
  21. Sal Santamaura

    Sal Santamaura Member

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    And for those in the US who would like to purchase some, I just discovered that it's in stock at Freestyle:

    http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=458