Agitation without inversion

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Krzys, Aug 11, 2009.

  1. Krzys

    Krzys Member

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    Since the beginning I have used the inversion technique for agitation but recently I have noticed that my Krokus tank is starting to leak like crazy and was wondering how effective turning the stick in the center of the tank is for agitation?

    I am really clueless on this technique.
     
  2. BetterSense

    BetterSense Member

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    When I used plastic tanks, I always used the washing-machine-twiddle-stick method of agitation. It always worked fine; I always had leaks when I tried to invert my plastic tank.
     
  3. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    As the last poster says the twidle stick works just as well, in a small tank - one or two spirals..

    Ian
     
  4. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

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    It also can do wonders in exteding the life of the developer. I use this when I want to run say 6 rolls of C-41 in my 4 reel tank. I mix c-41 1L at a time, and I usually consider it good for up to 12 rolls if they are all processed soon after the ingredients are mixed, but it does not keep well past two weeks, particularly if a few rolls were processed in it when it was first mixed.

    It does oxidize quickly to aerial exposure. So just spinning means that I can run three reels, re-bottle the develper, and then run the second batch of three reels.

    I have tried using it with inversion agitaion in a apaterson tank, and it is oxidised off after the first round of films.
     
  5. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

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    My own experience is that it can work, but I have trouble sometimes getting an agitation pattern that's right -- it's easy to get underdevelopment or streaks on negatives if you agitate too little, too much, or otherwise wrong. I recommend you set aside a few test rolls to see how it works for you. Include a range of films that require different development times.
     
  6. Herzeleid

    Herzeleid Member

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    I always have dark edges on my negatives with the twiddle stick in AP and Paterson tanks. I tried slow, fast, right, left both ways. I never use it to agitate except initial agitation, stop and fix steps..
     
  7. Anthony Sanson

    Anthony Sanson Member

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    If you want anti-anal results..this should work.

    Hello, I would suggest trying this technique. I can't give you any exact zone system answer that will give you high-light and shadow retention...but, will work fine.

    Keep you tank on the counter and move it in a continuos figure eight pattern. It also would be OK to use a figure nine, three, or four. If you use a figure one or two pattern,be sure to turn your tank clock-wise a quarter turn each time you move back and forth. Do this motion for the entire time. If you think it is to much agitation...pause- breath- relax and continue when you feel it is appropriate. and Yes, you can read a little humor in this post.....the idea is to slosh around the developer. Ofcourse, none of us real photographers would ever think of doing this approach..much toooo unpredictable. ;~))

    Have fun, good luck!...let us all know how it all turns out.

    Anthony
     
  8. oscroft

    oscroft Member

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    I've always used the twiddle stick, and never had any problems developing up to 5 rolls in a tank.
     
  9. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    Ditto. If there is a center post on a plastic tank, use it rather than invert the tank. That is what it is there for.

    Steve
     
  10. archphoto

    archphoto Member

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    Same here when I use plastic. Never thought of inversion with those tanks......

    Peter
     
  11. Krzys

    Krzys Member

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    So what pattern should I follow? How many tunes of the stick how often?

    I normally do 1 minute of inversions then 5 for 10 seconds every minute.
     
  12. DLM

    DLM Member

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    In something I read, I think it was a document from Ilford about doing B&W film, they recommend something like sliding the tank forward 10 inches and back quickly, about a second there and back. I did that for a while, just do it same amount of times that you would have inverted, and it worked just fine.
     
  13. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    IIRC two or three rotations every 30 seconds.

    Steve
     
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  15. Kevin Caulfield

    Kevin Caulfield Subscriber

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    Some people don't want to invert their Paterson type tanks because they THINK they leak, but some people also don't realise that Paterson tanks need to be "burped". To "burp" a tank, while you lift up an edge of the closed lid, you press down on the centre of the lid, thereby expelling air or "burping" the tank.

    Also, from a physics point of view, think about inversion in comparison with twiddling. Twiddling gives a mainly two dimensional agitation pattern, whilst inversion gives a three dimensional agitation, especially if combined with a toroidal twist.
     
  16. fotch

    fotch Member

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    May be true, however, I cannot tell the difference in looking at old negatives. I have used the the rotation stick, the inversion, and the rotary processor. So it does not matter, use what is appropriate to the tank you like to use. JMO
     
  17. fschifano

    fschifano Member

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    I use the stick all the time with my smaller plastic tanks and it works just fine. Five or six complete and very vigorous back and forth motions for 5 seconds every 30 does the trick for me. But, as Ian Grant pointed out and as I've learned myself, this works well with the smaller tanks that hold only 2 35mm sized reels. I've tried it with a larger plastic tank holding 3 x 120 reels and development wasn't quite even. It takes a lot more force to get all that volume of developer moving.
     
  18. Krzys

    Krzys Member

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    I should still whack the tank against the counter to dislodge any bubbles yes?
     
  19. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Lift and Lower

    Perhaps the method has been mentioned.
    Conducted in total darkness a rod is used
    to lift then lower a or a few reels.

    I've used lift and lower with sheet films
    when tank developing. Sheets are
    handled one at a time. Dan
     
  20. Larry.Manuel

    Larry.Manuel Member

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    My method of twirling: two twirls in one direction in 5 seconds, then the same in the opposite direction in the next 5 seconds. Each twirl is as much rotation as I can manage comfortably with my thumb and forefinger. I equate this with one inversion. My films have always been developed evenly when using this method. Tap the tank? Yes, I do that, but only during the first minute. And only gently.
     
  21. hoffy

    hoffy Member

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    Man, I was always under the impression that the spin agitation was the least preferred option. I use a plastic tank and invert. The only time when I get a leak is usually on the last inversion set as I probably have already started to slide the cap partially up.
     
  22. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    Yes

    Steve
     
  23. marco.taje

    marco.taje Member

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    Here's another stick user.
    I use inversion on my slightly leaking paterson tank only during the "Ilford" wash sequence. Development and the rest are done with stick rotation. Personally I keep the same scheme as recommended by film makers, i.e. 10 secs every minute with tapping after each cycle, and my negatives look fine. I've tuned dev times with this method, so I don't know if there's any little difference with the inversion method. But surely it IS possible to get good negs for your workflow.
     
  24. fschifano

    fschifano Member

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    I think Ilford recommends 10 seconds each minute. The Kodak tech sheets almost invariably recommend 5 seconds each 30 seconds. I've done it both ways. Does it make a lot of difference? Not really once you've got things dialed in to your preference. My own admittedly anecdotal observations show that the negatives print about the same.
     
  25. WolfTales

    WolfTales Member

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    Burping... twirling... twiddling... tapping... whacking...

    This is just rich!
     
  26. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    Of course, following the directions that came with the tank would be ideal,

    IF the directions came with the tank originally [not always the case]

    ELSE IF we got the directions when we were given [or bought used] the tank.

    But frankly, most of us never saw the instructions for any tank - plastic or steel.

    Steve