Another film developing question

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by kjsphoto, Jun 28, 2004.

  1. kjsphoto

    kjsphoto Subscriber

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    OK,

    AS I have been reading more and more I see that with Pyrocat-HD you do not need a chemical stop bath or Hypo-Clearign agent if you use Tf-4 or a Rapid fixer like Ilford.

    So my question is that if I use a developer like Rodinal or TMax can I use T4F fixer? Also if I use say Ilford rapid fix do I need a chemical stop bath or will water work and in this case will I need a hypo-clearing agent?

    Right now I am using;

    TMAx developer - Changing to Rodinal once I run out.
    Koday Indicator stop bath ( Do I need this if I use a Rapid fix or TF-4 )
    Ilford Rapid Fixer
    Koday Hypo Clearing Agent ( Do I need this. If not do I need to wash negs for 30 minutes )
    Ilford Wetting agent.

    I just am a bit puzzled as I have been reading and notice how with a non-Hardening fixer (TF-4) you do not need a stop or HYPO-clearing agent. But will this hold true for all developers being used?

    Any advice is appreciated as I am trying to get my head artound this before I buy chemistry.

    I tell you what I learned back in College 15 years didnt teach me anything like this. It was D76, Stop bath (chemical), Fixer, Hypoclearing, wash.

    Thanks again,

    Kev
     
  2. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    with Tf-4 fixer you do not use an acid stop bath, neither do you use hypo clear. You can use this fixer with all films and papers. You can also use Ilford's rapid fixer.

    Neither do you use stop bath with PMK or pryocat-hd, but you do/can with other film developers.

    Check Ilfords washing methods you do not need to wash for 30 minutes and they (Ilford donot recommend hypoclear with their films)

    Based on your message
    Rodinal
    stop bath/ or water
    rapid fixer
    wash
    wetting agent

    or
    rodinal
    water wash/no stop bath
    TF4 fixer
    wash
    wetting agent
     
  3. doughowk

    doughowk Subscriber

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    According to Photographers Formulary's recommendations, you should not user a stop bath or hypo clearing agent with TF-4 fixer, just water. I've used it with both film & paper developers (including dektol, Agfa Neutol, PF130, Sprint) with no apparent problems.
     
  4. kjsphoto

    kjsphoto Subscriber

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    How about with Ilfrod Rapid Fix. Can you skip the stop bath and just use a water one instead? It seems that if I use the TF-4 then no problem. I just order the Darkroom and Film Cookbooks today from amazon so I hope these will help clear a lot of this up.


    Thanks again,

    kev
     
  5. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    You wrote:"I just am a bit puzzled as I have been reading and notice how with a non-Hardening fixer (TF-4) you do not need a stop or HYPO-clearing agent. But will this hold true for all developers being used?"

    With regard to the stop bath, for almost all film developers the answer is YES, it holds true. You do not need an acid stop bath

    The exceptions are extremely active developers with very short development times (3 minutes or less). It is unlikely that you will be using developers of this type. With fast film, undiluted D76 and high solution temperatures you might encounter this problem, but you can always dilute D76 1:1 or 1:3 and avoid the problem that way (dilution will extend the development time).

    It is also true that you do not need to use Hypo Clearing Agent with film. It doesn't hurt to use it, but it increases your washing time. However, it can be helpful for removing the red antihalation dye that Kodak puts into TMX & TMY films.

    With regard to washing times, I recommend that you follow Ilford's washing procedure. Here is a link that gives an independent evaluation: http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/5693/photogra.html#fwash

    Download the .pdf file, it has a lot of good stuff in it about washing film and prints. You may want to skip the science in the first 6 pages and go to the recommended procedures in pages 7 and 8.
     
  6. kjsphoto

    kjsphoto Subscriber

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    Hello Tom,

    Thank you very much for the information. One problem I have is that right now I cannot get my cold water out of the tap to drop below 70 deg. F. So if I do a N-1 I can down to about 5 min depending on the film I am using with the TMAX developer.

    But it seems fro the above message that TMax is not a fast developing developer unless of course the water is hot then the time increases.

    Now for a water stop if I am using trays or even a rotary process do you just put the film in the tray and agitate fro about 30 seconds or will the water itself just stop the processing? And how long do you need to put it in the stop (water) for? For rotary I figure that the drum rolling will give it what it needs.

    Also I was searching for the link you mentioned about OLE home brew fixer. DO you know the link and with his home brew would you need a acid stop or hypo clearing or just water.

    Thank you again,

    Kev
     
  7. BWGirl

    BWGirl Member

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    I use water stop bath & Ilford rapid fixer no problem. Ilford has an interesting water-saving post-fixer bath method as well. Check their website.

    Jeanette
     
  8. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Kevin, I rinse the film in water for about 1 minute before going into the stop bath. I do the same for both tray and tank processing.

    Ole's home brew alkaline fixer bath works just the same as TF-4 and Ilford Rapid Fixer. No stop bath needed and no Hypo Clearing Agent (HCA) needed - just water. Send Ole a PM for his formula (he's an APUG member - with chemical expertise).
    For the chemicals to mix Ole's fixer (and other photo chemistry) here are a couple of resources:

    Artcraft: http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/
    Artcraft will sell you photographic chemicals and will also mix photographic formulas for you.

    The Chemistry Store: www.chemistrystore.com/
    Another good source for photo chemicals.
     
  9. kjsphoto

    kjsphoto Subscriber

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    Thanks will have to PM him. I am a bit confused now. I tought that you go from developer tray to tray of water that is the stop. So above you go into a stop bath? What does the stop bath consist of and how long?

    Thanks again,

    Kev
     
  10. eric

    eric Member

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    New forum suggestion?

    Maybe we can have a new forum here just on chemical recipes? I've always wanted to get the Film and Darkroom cookbook books but I can always find someone who knows something (after a lengthy search). So maybe we can start posting some recipes in a new forum? It'll save me money by not buying the books
     
  11. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Sorry for creating confusion, Kevin. My typing fingers got out of synch with my brain.

    My sentence should have said: " I rinse the film in water for about 1 minute before going into the FIXING bath."

    I do not use a stop bath. Or, if you like, I use a water rinse as my stop bath.
     
  12. lee

    lee Member

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    I use the H2O as the stop and don't use the stop bath chemicals at all. Just into the water for a minute and then in the fixer. Confusion is a state of mind where I live almost all the time now days.

    lee\c
     
  13. kjsphoto

    kjsphoto Subscriber

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    Shew, I thought I misread something. Thanks!

    I have one more question and hate to sound like an idiot but here it goes. When you do the rinse to you place the neg in a tray with running water or just put the neg in a tray of water and agitate for a minute?

    Thanks again,

    Kev
     
  14. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    I put the neg in a tray of water and agitate for a minute.
     
  15. kjsphoto

    kjsphoto Subscriber

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    Thank you very much. This is great as now less chemistry that I have to use.

    For now I just need

    Dev (Tmax developer almost out and going to try rodinal, pyro)
    Water - Stop
    Fix
    wash.

    Thanks,

    Kev
     
  16. lee

    lee Member

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    Same here

    lee\c
     
  17. glbeas

    glbeas Member

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    Sounds like a good idea, or we can simply post the recipes as a short article to make it easier to track down.
     
  18. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    More years ago than I like to admit, but like to brag about, Edwal fixer concentrate came with a suggestion that you add fixer concentrate directly to the used developer, using both in one-shot manner. I have found that this also works with TF4. You need enouugh head space, if you using a tank, to hold 1/16 of the amount of developer, so you may have to pour out a little developer. This trick comes in handy sometimes when you're on the road and want to see some results before you leave the scene. You carry a tank, a bottle of developer concentrate, a bottle of fixer concentrate and a graduate.

    Needless to say, you agitate vigorously after adding the fixer to the developer to get thorough and rapid mixing.
     
  19. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Not much, if anything. It is convenient in terms of number of vessels you carry or maintain, and consistent because of the one-shot use. I have not tried it with true stand developing, so I don't know if it has advantages there, but I would be willing to take Tom Hoskinson's word for it.
     
  20. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    I just developed a roll of Kodak TMY 400 in Pat Gainer's PC-TEA developer (Triethanolamine, L-ascorbic acid, phenidone). I used Pat's one-shot fix procedure (TF-4 concentrate). The agitation was gentle, 10 seconds/minute for 9.5 minutes at 70F. I am attaching the densitometry data and curve that resulted (as a PDF file).

    I have another roll of 120 TMY exposed under identical conditions. I try it stand developed for 13 minutes and post the results.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. JohnFinch

    JohnFinch Member

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    TF-4 is an alkaline fixer, Ilford rapid fix is an acid fixer.

    TF-4, and the other alkaline fixers (tf-3 and archifix to name a couple), are used because

    a) They wash out more easily from the film and paper emulsions (good for achival properties) and
    b) Because they have less effect on the stain created by staining/tanning developers - Pyro, Pyrocat HD, Dixactol etc.

    Not neccesarily in that order :smile:

    When using an alkaline fixer it is normal/recomended to use just plain water as a stop bath. This keeps the emulsion from acidity stopping stain loss and the possibility of pinholes in film developed with a carbonate accelerator (as some developers have). A plain water stop is just as effective as an acid stop just slightly slower. Hence the post above that points out that, for short developing times, the development has to be stopped rapidly. In that case then, you might use an acid stop. For any other times it is not at all neccesary.

    What are we doing when we stop a film? If using plain water then we are diluting the developer so much that it stops working. So I use two 30 second stops of plain water (at developer temp) with constant agitation. If using an acid stop, we are stopping the developer from working because it will not in an acid environment. You can see then that the water stop is slightly slower at stopping the film. At development times of over 5 minutes, this speed of stopping is not important. Just make sure you do it the same everytime..... be consistent.