Ansco 130 w/phenidone. Am I missing out?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by wildbill, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. wildbill

    wildbill Member

    Messages:
    2,851
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Location:
    Grand Rapids
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I just started mixing my own ansco 130 and after reading about people's reactions to metol, decided to substitute phenidone (1/10 the amount of metol required). I've made several prints (high contrast subjects) and the results are pretty good. What I couldn't find in my research was what the differences are between a metol based version and one with phenidone. I wear gloves and I'm not sure how my skin would react to metol.

    Would the original formula with metol produce better results?

    I've also read that phenidone needs benzo when substituting for metol. If so, how much?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2012
  2. wildbill

    wildbill Member

    Messages:
    2,851
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Location:
    Grand Rapids
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    c'mon
     
  3. RidingWaves

    RidingWaves Member

    Messages:
    816
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    It can take a long time to develop a sensitivity to metol. I think the way to figure it out is to do a series of test prints with each version of 130, and compare.
     
  4. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,038
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If an MQ formula needs 4g KBr then cut that to 2g in a PQ variant and add 20ml of 1% Benzotriazole solutio.

    5 g Metol is substituded by 0.3g Phenidone, you can do your own maths :D

    Ian
     
  5. ChuckP

    ChuckP Subscriber

    Messages:
    646
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Location:
    NW Chicagola
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
  6. eclarke

    eclarke Member

    Messages:
    1,972
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Location:
    New Berlin,
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Vinny, use 15cc 1% benzotriazole/ liter, replacing the bromide..With Ilford WT paper, it' great..Evan Clarke

    P.S. up the Carbonate to 80 g ANHYDROUS..marvelous effect on the blacks..
     
  7. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,569
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Just out of curiosity: how far can you up the carbonate before things turn ugly? By accident I once added a lot of carbonate and the Ansco 130 turned completely black in less than 4 hours. It still worked but started staining my prints before I tossed it out.
     
  8. artonpaper

    artonpaper Subscriber

    Messages:
    326
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Location:
    Staten Islan
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    One thing here, I read somewhere that metol sensitivity and the subsequent skin and respiratory reactions has lessened in recent times due to metol being more refined than it used to be. Evidently there were impurities in the metol that were the culprit in most allergic reactions. I'm I can't site the source, I seemed to have lost it. This may or may not be accurate.
     
  9. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,191
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Location:
    Los Alamos,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Variation (long life):
    Split stock solution for very long life (Muir)
    Solution A
    Sodium sulfite (anh) 40 g
    Sodium bisulfate 10 g
    Hydroquinone 11 g
    Phenidone 250 mg
    Glycin 11 g
    WTM 1 l
    Solution B
    Sodium carbonate (mono) 80 g
    WTM 1 l
    Dilute 1;1:1 for use. Add potassium bromide or benzotriazole as needed.
    (Ref: Photo Techniques, Sep/Oct 1996, pg 55)

    Variation (PC130):
    Water (52C) 750 ml
    Sodium sulfite (anh) 50 g
    Ascorbic acid 18 g
    Sodium carbonate (mono) 78 g
    Phenidone 500 mg
    Glycin 11 g
    Potassium bromide 5.5 g
    Water to make 1 l
    pH (measured) = 10.1
    This looks a lot different than Ansco 130, but it is really very close to the original formula. Ascorbic acid replaces hydroquinone in about an equi-molar proportion, and phenidone replaces metol. Phenidone is not quite as superadditive with ascorbic acid or glycin as it is with hydroquinone, and the amount was adjusted accordingly.
    Dilute 1 + 1 for use. Develop for two and one half minutes.
    Based on emergence times, the PC130 appears to be considerably more active than Ansco 130, but it gives slightly slower paper speeds. The difference is about a third of a stop for the Forma paper, nearly a quarter stop for the Ilford, and almost none for the Kodak.
    Ref: APUG

    Note that PC-130 does not have any chelating agents to prevent sudden death. Addition of appropriate amounts of succinic acid and triethanolamine may be helpful.
     
  10. wildbill

    wildbill Member

    Messages:
    2,851
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Location:
    Grand Rapids
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    what's MQ? original formula?
    btw, I'm not looking for a new formula, just some answers regarding what I'm using. After reading your replies, I'm just confused.
     
  11. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,038
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    MQ is Metol & Hyroquinone. PQ is Phenidone & Hyroquinone. Agfa Ansco/GAF 130 is Metol, Hydroquinone and Glycin though.

    Ian
     
  12. eclarke

    eclarke Member

    Messages:
    1,972
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Location:
    New Berlin,
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Vinny, try it this way once. This has been my standard for about 7 years now. Use anhydrous carbonate or increase the mono to make it up...

    130*paper*developer**makes*1L*stock
    *
    750*cc*water*@125*deg.
    2.2*grams*Metol
    50*grams*Sodium*Sulfite
    11*grams*Hydroquinone
    80*grams*Sodium*Carbonate*(anhydrous)
    11*grams*Glycin
    15*cc*1%*Benzotriazole*solution
    Water*to*make*1L.
    *
    *
    Mix*in*order*shown.*Add*a*pinch*of*Sodium*Sulfite*to*the*water*before*adding*Metol.
    *
    I*dilute*1+3…..

    I*like*to*run*the*tray*at*73*degrees