Any Metz 45 CL/CT users out there… Hassy Proflash 4504 users can likewise chime in

Discussion in 'Lighting' started by Ira Rush, Feb 3, 2010.

  1. Ira Rush

    Ira Rush Member

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    Recently picked up 4 used “AA” battery holders (part #45-39/5312) for my flash units (ProFlash and 45 CL4).

    Noticed that some (2 out of the 4) are missing what appears to be a built in capacitor (?)

    What is it, (Is it a capacitor?) what is it for, and more importantly which ones should I use or not use for that matter?

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. mgb74

    mgb74 Subscriber

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    The AA holders I have for my 45CT-1s don't have any capacitor or other electronics. Are they all the same part number?
     
  3. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    I have a 45 CT-3 and my holder, 45-39 has what appear to be a capacitor.

    It is a capacitors for when I quickly removed the batteries and connected a volt meter, it registered the same value and slowly dissipated. The only device that will exhibit this kind of characteristics are capacitors. Judging from the rate of decline, I suspect the values are rather high.... perhaps tens of microF or something like that. (I'm guessing here based on experience) I am not able to read the value on the device itself because of they way it is installed. What IS weird is that most capacitors of this style usually have a distinct mark of its polarity. I don't see it.

    I have no idea why it is there though. Batteries themselves act like a very large capacitor and I can't think of any reason why it is necessary.

    You might want to e-mail Metz and ask its tech directly. There is a link to send e-mails at its website. Few days ago, I asked a question and I got a reply (a very lengthy reply) in few days.

    I'm sorry I can't be more of an assistance.
     
  4. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    This is a guess only.

    Could one version of the holders be designed for use with rechargeable AA cells?

    Matt
     
  5. dances_w_clouds

    dances_w_clouds Subscriber

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    That is what works in my 45 CT-1. 6 AA rechargeable batteries
     
  6. benjiboy

    benjiboy Subscriber

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    Using ordinary Ni-Cads or Lithium cells in the alkaline battery pack of the Metz 45 series can cause damage to you're flash, because it makes it operate at too high a voltage, the only re- chargeable ones that should be used are the Metz Ni-Cad pack.
     
  7. Ira Rush

    Ira Rush Member

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    Thanks to all who have responded....

    Yes, I sent them an e-mail a few days ago and am hoping for a reply

    Matt... I think you are right on target!

    I did some "Googling" and came up with the following link from Flickr:
    http://www.flickr.com/groups/421691@N22/discuss/72157604782479002

    If you scroll down, you'll see some pics of what I am talking about (what looks like a capacitor, which may turn out to be a "overload/fuse" according to what I am reading on this post from flickr.

    Now I am NOT suggesting anyone modify the battery holders as some have done according to the flickr postings, but this does explain what this is for.

    Hoping for an official response from Metz, and if/when I get one I'll post that too.

    Again, thanks one and all
     
  8. Jesper

    Jesper Subscriber

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    The Metz 45 comes with two different types of holders. One to use with NiCads and one to use with ordinary batteries.
    The capacitor is not the only thing that separates them, but it is the most obvious. The contact layout between the two is different. There is one common pin and on that is differently placed between the holders (if you look inside the flash you will see three contacts of which two will be used for each holder).
    To me it sounds like you have two holders for rechargable cells and two for AA batterise.
     
  9. mgb74

    mgb74 Subscriber

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    I suppose that makes sense, as the voltage, discharge rate, and capacity of ni-cads would be less.

    But please let us know what Metz says if/when you hear from them.

    I'd also be curious if the holders designed for ni-cads could also be used with nimh cells.
     
  10. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

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    Ordinary NiCads provide a lower voltage. Not higher.
    I have used NiCads for eons in the battery holder, and never a problem (except with capacity).
     
  11. wiltw

    wiltw Subscriber

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    No capacitor in the AA holder of my 45CL3 or 45CT4. The original owner manual provides no explicit warning against the use of rechargeables in the 45-39 AA holder, although the instructions do say "use only alkaline manganese batteries of size IEC LR 6 (penlight cells size AA)"

    The 45-40 Nicad pack from Metz is not one that is designed for the user to remove and replace cells. The Nicads in this holder are factory installed in the pack.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2010
  12. Ira Rush

    Ira Rush Member

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    Now while I still have not received an official word from Metz/Bogen, I am thinking that the ones without the "capacitor" are the older "AA" holders, while those with that "thingie" are the newer design, made for re-chargable "AA" batteries, but NOT for use with NiCads or the newer NiMH batteries. As stated by "wiltw" , the NiCads/NiMH holders are sealed so to speak and not meant to be taken apart and messed with.

    Once again, if official word from Metz/Bogen arrives, I'll post.
     
  13. benjiboy

    benjiboy Subscriber

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    I was quoting from the manual http://www.metzflash.co.uk/pages/pdfpage.htm.
     
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  15. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

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    Not very accurately then. :wink:
    The manual only says something about not using Lithium batteries.

    Do not use lithium cells! Their higher voltage would damage the flash
    unit’s electronic system. Only use the permitted power sources (see
    above). Warranty claims for faults and damage to the flash unit are not
    accepted if they were caused by the use of accessories from other manufacturers.


    It says that in every language included in the manual. :wink:

    NiCads are 1.2 V, opposed to regular alkaline battery's 1.5 V.
    So no problem.
     
  16. Ira Rush

    Ira Rush Member

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    ...... yes but...

    The 45 CL-4 Digital manual mentions that ( do not use lithium cells), the manual for the older 45 CL-4 makes no statement about lithium.
    It's possible that the newer Digital models circuit is different than the older model hence that statement.

    The lithium "AA" batteries that I use are 1.5v same as a regular alkaline or even the old carbon battery so I am not sure what they mean by higher voltage!

    Anyway, still awaiting an official answer from the "Metz/Bogen and the Emerald City wizard behind the curtain" :D

    Will post if I hear anything :rolleyes:
     
  17. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Lack of mention of lithium battery with older flash is likely because Lithium type battery for AA size did not exist or was not in common use at the time those flash units were produced. It makes sense that manufacturer does not want users to operate flash with anything but power source which the circuit was originally designed to handle. Too low or too high inconsistency may just be a translation error Metz being a German company.

    Hold on tight. It took Metz few days to answer my question. But they did include a full and complete answer once it did answer.
     
  18. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

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    It is. But that will probably not be the reason.
    Lithium batteries are a more recent invention than the 45 CL 4. :wink:

    (P.S. see that tkamiya made the same point.)

    But anyway, i was making a point about NiCads. Not Lithium batteries.

    The problem using NiCads and the older 45 CT Series Metz units was something about the 'ready' light and when that would light. The CL series got a different circuit including a different ready light.

    The bigger problem however was that NiCads then held half of the capacity of normal Alkalines, less than that even when the NiCads were getting old. The flash would recharge slower too.

    But only such inconveniences. Never a danger to the unit itself.
     
  19. Q.G.

    Q.G. Inactive

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    The German text says the same as the text in other languages in the manuals.
     
  20. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Yeah, that was a wild guess on my part. (concerning possible translation error) Being bilingual between Japanese and English, badly translated manuals are constant source of chuckles...
     
  21. Ira Rush

    Ira Rush Member

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    .... True

    .... True


    But....

    I have the original manual for my 45 CL-4, when I got it a number of years ago. In the section regarding “Power Supply” aside from not mentioning Lithium batteries (yes, yes I know, I know, way, way before its time) it does mention the P-50 power pack and the N-22 or N-23 A/C power supply (both of which has been discontinued for a very long, long time).

    The newer manual (obtained on-line as a pdf) for the 45 CL-4, “plain unit” (for lack of a better word, i.e. not the Digital or Digital Basic kit), again under the section "Power Supply", you will note it drops the mention of the long discontinued N-22 or N-23, but still mentions the P-50 power pack. Once again it does not mention anything regarding lithium.

    My point…. If they edited the manual to include dropping the mention of the A/C power supply, surely they would have included the disclaimer about lithium, if they were so worried about it.

    I still think that the circuitry for the newer 45 CL-4 Digital is much different, and more importantly I think when they say not to use lithium, they are referring to some lithium batteries that are indeed of a higher power rating per battery then others (1.75v).

    The brand of lithium batteries that I use is rated 1.5v each, same as the alkaline.

    Of course this is all a moot point until / if Metz/Bogen ever decides to provide a more concrete and official response, regarding that "capacitor thingie".
     
  22. photomy

    photomy Member

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    Additional Input To Old Post: I bought a used 45-CL1 with a battery holder for Alkaline batteries (based on position of the negative post). The CL version is the newest of this model. It is my understanding that Metz never made a battery holder for the end user to add their own rechargeable batteries. The only rechargeable battery holders are the Metz made ones with permanent batteries inside - either NiCad version or NiMH.

    My battery holder DOES have a capacitor wired in. I assume it is a capacitor anyway. My guess as to the purpose is that it is an improvement to the older battery holder for the Alkaline batteries. The main problem with the Alkaline batteries is the voltage and battery capacity decline rather rapidly. The capacitor may assist the batteries as they start to decline, almost like an extra battery. When the main flash capacitor is charging, the small capacitor and the batteries are discharging. When the main capacitor is done charging, then the small capacitor can recharge from the batteries getting ready to assist during the next cycle. I am not an electrical engineer or anything close to this, so I could be completely wrong.
     
  23. Pgeobc

    Pgeobc Member

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    Well, my 45CL-4Digital unit came with an NiMH battery pack, so their 1.2 volts must be fine. Use the rechargable NiMH batteries and things get better. One thing that has been overlooked in the discussion of voltage differences and that is the category of differences in internal resistance of the different batteries. Perhaps Li batteries will allow too much current, too fast. I don't know what to think of that, though, because my NiMH batteries are fast.

    I recently bought a Metz 54-MZ-4i and its manual does not list Li batteries as a permissible power source; it only lists NiMH, NiCd, and Alkaline as acceptable.
     
  24. skruft

    skruft Member

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    I have the Hasselblad version. There must be a hundred articles on these battery holders on the internet. They were not made to be re-celled but can be.

    I think the easiest answer for an amateur doing occasional use is just to use alkalines in the holders meant for them. If I had it all to do over again I might do that.

    What I did first was to re-cell the rechargeable battery holders with NiMH. This is not recommended (because the charger is not meant for them) but it worked.

    Then I found a Quantum Battery 2 and an adapter for this flash, and put a new battery in the Quantum unit. This was the best way overall. Quantums with dead batteries are very inexpensive and you need to be just a little handy with electrical things to replace the batteries.
     
  25. Ralph Javins

    Ralph Javins Member

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    Good morning;

    The use of a battery charger designed for Nickel-Cadmium cells and then used with Nickel-Metal-Hydride cells is not a problem. Most of those battery chargers will work fine with both of those two battery chemistry types.

    A few words about Lithium-Ion batteries: The Ni-Cad/Ni-MH battery chargers are not compatible with the newer Lithium-Ion battery cells. You must get and use a charger specifically designed for that battery chemistry . You might be surprised at the price for one, but keep in mind that the Lithium-Ion batteries do need to have special precautions observed if they are to work safely. Yes, there have been fires not only with laptop computers but even with cellular telephones with that type of battery. Since the recognition by the battery industry of the need for special protective circuitry with these batteries, this kind of thing is now back down to the "rare" incidence level again. Just be careful of what you are buying with the Lithium-Ion type batteries. If the price really seems to be a bargain in comparison with what you have been paying, it is possible that this particular manufacturer may be cutting costs by leaving out of that battery things that really should be in there.
     
  26. Frank Chambers

    Frank Chambers Member

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    I use 45 Ct-4 and Eneloops are a perfect substitute for any kind of battery.