Anyone have a source for Ethylenediamine?

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by cinejerk, Apr 20, 2012.

  1. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    I guess the title is somewhat self explanatory.

    I talked to artkraft. He can get it but the hazmat fees are double the actual cost of the product.

    Anyone know of a current supplier without the ridiculous fees?
     
  2. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Ethylenediamine is a dangerous chemical and any supplier is going to charge a hazmat fee, You don't say what you need it for so a suubstitute cannot be recommended.
     
  3. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    Ethylenediamine essential E6 chemical

    Hi Gerald

    Ethylenediamine is an essential chemical in E6 color developer. According to PE, you don't have a true

    E6 color developer unless this chemical is included.

    I too would like to know what this chemical does and would like to find a substitute.

    But I can't argue with PE so I am trying to find a source that isn't going to cost me $$$.

    Thanks for your reply.
     
  4. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    There are two things that you can do if it is hard to obtain this chemical The first would be to find a substitute formula which does not use it. As PE says some formulas are better than others. So there would be some research on your part. The second approach would be to use ethylenediamine monohydrochloride or the dihydrochloride and increasing the amount of alkali in the formula. You would be creating ethylenediamine in situ in this case. Both these chemicals are safer to handle and shpuld not have a hazmat fee since they are solids.
     
  5. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    There are excellent E6 formulae that don't use Ethylene diamine as such however they do use an EDTA salt isntead.

    Ian
     
  6. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    Ian
    Can you post a formula here? Which EDTA salt do they use?
     
  7. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Some formulas with Ethylene Diamine use the Sulfate salt. It is better than the HCl salt. See posted Kodak formulas for VNF film processing which are on the Kodak web site. They list some sources of the chemical. It is supplied as a 90% liquid or a solid H2SO4 salt.

    There are no fomulas using chelating agents like EDTA, but if there are some free amines that are less volatile, they may work.

    The Ethylene Diamine acts as a mild solvent and fogging agent for the silver, to induce better development of the grains and giving higher dmax.

    PE
     
  8. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    Thanks again PE

    The kodak vnf-1 formula for color developer shows ethylenediamine 98% 3 grams. I think that this is a little odd to
    list the quantity of a liquid in grams.

    So if I found ethylenediamine sulfate that would be a reasonable substitute? 3 grams of this solid?
     
  9. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Cinejerk, you need to do your own research, there are a few E6 formulæ that use EDTA salts in the colour developerand they work perfectly. They have been posted on APUG. There were highly reputable professional labs who made up all their colour chemistry from scratch using these formulae.

    Ian
     
  10. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    Ok thanks Ian. I just thought that if I could get as close to the kodak formula it would be best.

    I was just notified by my supplier that any chemical liquid or solid with the word "amine" in it would 99% of the time be classed as a "hazmat".

    So I guess I'm screwed !!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  11. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Yeah, I misread the 98% as 90%. Sorry.

    As for the Antical #4, you can use EDTA for this with no problem.

    As for Ethylene Diamine Sulfate, you have to compensate for the Molecular Weight of the salt which is much higher. For example, Eaton, in his text on Photographic Chemistry lists use of the Sulfate at 7.8 g/l in the E1 or E2 color developer. He does not specify which version.

    PE
     
  12. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    There's more ways to skin a cat :D The Kodak way is just that particular company's approach and there were many other approaches that worked just as well. Remember Kodak don't actually make any chemistry it's now made for them by one of the pioneering photochemical companies at the fore-front of colour chemistry, particularly colour developing agents - Champion, who were known previously as May & Baker for many years.

    Ian
     
  13. stefan4u

    stefan4u Member

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    EDA / EDTA

    Is it just me, or is EDA and EDTA somehow mixed up ?

    EDA (Ethylendiamine) is used as a Silver solvent in the Color developer and does increase the contrast in two ways.
    It lowers D.min due silver solving and somehow increased developer activity.

    Often it is substituted by SCN (Silver solvent only) due its limited availability in homebrew formulations. This can be done, but EDA works definitely a bit better without changing color balance.
    My first tests where always without this hard to find stuff, and I’ve been happy with them…

    EDTA (Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid) is sequestering / chelating metal ions, against catalytic degradion of the developer, or as a decalcifying agent.

    Regards,
    Stefan
     
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  15. Prof_Pixel

    Prof_Pixel Member

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    Kodak sensitized products are tested and released for sale based on the Kodak standard process. Other processes may work, but verification of quality results is then up to the user.
     
  16. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    Amazing how some of these seemingly essential chemicals are so un obtainable. Or so expensive as to be out of reach.

    Photo supply houses do not stock them.

    How are we suppose to maintain film and processing without the materials ???
     
  17. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Stefan, you are correct. Ethylene Diamine and EDTA function as you say and some people who are not chemists have mixed them up. I think there is a great deal of confusion out there over this.

    I really don't know about KSCN being useful in this case. I have never heard of it being used in a color developer but it is used in the first developer.

    Try here:

    http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog...cus=product&N=0+220003048+219853269+219853286

    or here:

    http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB3271335.htm

    For a direct source of the liquid amine, and the salt.

    PE
     
  18. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    EDTA is really cheap and available here, shouldn't be a problem for you getting it there if you want to try it?

    Would salicylic acid be a substitute? That's available everywhere.


    No KSCN available from photo supplier, but do have NaSCN.
     
  19. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    Athiril

    It's not EDTA that I'm looking for. I'm looking for Ethylenediamine. Completely different stuff.

    There has to be somewhere you can get this without jumping through hoops and paying 3 times the value of the chemical in hazmat fees ! :sad:
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Gee. I just realized where you can get some. It is in all E6 kits! Try one of them.

    By juggling the chemistry, this CD can probably be used for VNF1 or any other E series color film.

    This would probably be your best bet. After all, otherwise you are facing the same problems that those wanting to process Kodachrome are facing.

    PE
     
  21. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    Wow processing kodachrome is sooooo far out there for me that processing it never crossed my mind :wink:

    Are you trying to say that I could use part of a E6 color developer and add some benzyl alcohol and make
    it work for VNF-1?
    That would be great.

    I would just like to add some ED to my ever growing chemistry set just for the sake of making E6 work properly. :laugh:

    Sigma-Aldrich wanted me to jump through some hoops before they would even consider selling it to me.

    I'm trying to get artkraft to stock some but he says he has to pay through the nose with hazmat too.
     
  22. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Yes, you could add BZA to the E6 developer and probably make it work.

    You see, I'm trying to lure you away so that my chemistry set stays bigger than yours. Nya, nya, nya :D !

    Seriously, I have found that some suppliers will order it for you and ship it to you for a price. Yes, expensive, but then you have it. Kodak quoted me $20,000 for a drum (smallest I could get from them of a chemical) and I found it elsewhere for $10. for 10 g which is all I needed. Everyone else wanted exorbitant prices for 20g - 100 g.

    PE
     
  23. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    You know I've been conversing with Stefan4u and you know this guy has really been doing some heavy research on E6. He does have a source for HQMS that I don't, I will grant you that but some of his fine tuned formula are looking pretty good.
    I've been trying the watkins formulas and they do work. But my dmax is pretty crappy translucent blue.
    I was looking through some of my 35mm slides that I processed (beseler 1g kit)NA, probably 30yrs ago now and they look sooo much better !!!! It isn't even funny. The blacks were really BLACKS :munch:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2012
  24. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Yeah, well there are other problems too. You have to look out for crossover, bad grain, bad sharpness and bad color reproduction (apart from the crossover). Most homemade formulas just do not work out for a variety of reasons.

    BTW, you can make HQ Monosulfonate by the method several of us described a few years ago here on APUG. Make a saturated solution of either Potassium Sulfite or Sodium Sulfite. Dissolve in it, X grams of HQ and then add y grams of regular old Hydrogen Peroxide. I forget the x and y, but the exact procedure is here somewhere.

    PE
     
  25. cinejerk

    cinejerk Member

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    Yes I have that exact thread saved somewhere. Can you use the resulting soup directly? Or does it need to be purified some way? That is a HUGE thread. I'll have to re-read it.

    I did a test film with the macbeth chart and the color repro looked pretty good. Just those unexposed borders should have been black, black.

    They are dark blue and you can see through them. UHG !!!!!
     
  26. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    If they are not black, then there are other erros.

    The HQMS is not pure and has excess sulfite present.

    PE