APUG Ethics of B&W conversion of color image

Discussion in 'Ethics and Philosophy' started by StoneNYC, Feb 28, 2013.

  1. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    So I was scanning the last of the film I shot at the Grand Canyon in january to post a few. There's one image in particular I was proud of, it was an image I had shot 2 years prior on Kodachrome and hadn't quite done a good job because I didn't understand or even know about reciprocity failure at the time.

    Really complicated story simplified, the Velvia I planned to have didn't make it to the post office, and one of the only chromes I had when I got to this image was highly expired Ektachrome EPT (yes the blue stuff).

    So the image is blue, and it does have a certain appeal as is, however I feel it would look much better as a B&W converted image. Now, I would assume there is a process, whereby you can print chrome's onto B&W paper, yes I realize it's a positive image, but I'm sure it could be done by reversing the paper or some such thing. So, since I don't have a dark room, develop in my sink in daylight tanks, and don't own an enlarger, I can't print optically, but I want to show the image in my gallery. Am I allowed to convert it to B&W and post it as long as I label it as such? or is that forbidden here?

    This is the image...

    10minuteEktachromeCompare.jpg

    EDIT: FYI the walls are of some kind of RED stone, the color cast is because it's EPT.
     
  2. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser

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    nope ...
    you can post it on DPUG, or in your apug-blog or maybe ( not sure ) in a photo folder on your profile page but not in the gallery ..
    the blue looks nice, kind of like an in camera cyanotype chrome.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  3. viridari

    viridari Member

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    Throw it on an enlarger, follow a standard B&W print process, and then scan the print. Now we're talking. :smile:
     
  4. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

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    Why not use a slide copier, but copy onto black & white negative film, then print it?
     
  5. zsas

    zsas Member

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    Our community has specific rules for a reason. What Sean has created is unique and special and it is our responsibility to uphold its virtues. Obviously we all understand your situation but if X is allowed then next week someone wants Y allowed then after a while APUG becomes ZPUG
     
  6. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    Nice image though. I like it in Blue too.
     
  7. Vincent Brady

    Vincent Brady Subscriber

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    Why not copy it on B&W film and have it developed and printed commercially. But no digital work please.

    PS I've just noticed that you have you have your prints for sale. With no enlarger how can you print your own work for this purpose?
     
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  8. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

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    Funny, I like the blue a lot more.
     
  9. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    Ok ok, I won't convert it.

    I don't have access nor the knowledge to print optically.

    Also this is a chrome, so NO ONE can't print this optically...

    I also don't have the skills or knowledge to copy the image.

    The only thing I do is shoot and then develop in my sink. I don't have a darkroom nor anywhere I can make a dark room in my home (I'm not allowed as its not my home).

    If someone wants a print, I take the scanned file to a printer and they print it for me. I don't know anyone who owns an enlarger nor any photo labs that still print optically, I do my best to use labs that print with true print paper of course.

    This is disclosed ahead of purchase of course.

    I love APUG but if I only scanned prints that were made entirely traditional, I wouldn't have any prints to show.

    I respect the reason for the "traditional" idea, but I don't think it's fair to be excluded from a community just because I don't have access to something. I'm not harming anyone and I don't discuss non traditional stuff. I was told it was OK to upload scanned negatives so long as they weren't photoshopped. I may do some slight tone adjustment to match the negative when the scanners auto setting picks the wrong mid point, and sometimes i get rid of dust particles. but that's it.

    Am I wrong about this too?



    ~Stone

    Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. blansky

    blansky Subscriber

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    Keep the blue. It has more mystery.

    Chalk it up as happy mistakes.
     
  11. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    Stone - keep posting your scans. Everyone else does it. I wish people posted more print scans to the gallery instead of negative scans, but even people making darkroom prints sometimes seem to prefer posting scans of the negative to the gallery. Perhaps they find it easier to get a half decent quality representation from a negative scan than a print scan. Don't know.


     
  12. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council

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    Horrendous grammar aside, that's not true at all. There may no longer be commercial labs in NYC that will print optically from slides, but the materials are out there to make direct prints from transparencies. It's called Ilfochrome, which can be processed in P3 chemistry.
     
  13. bvy

    bvy Subscriber

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    I must have missed the part where you were excluded. There's no shorage of negative scans in the galleries.

    If I see a black and white image at APUG, I take comfort in knowing that I'm looking at either a black and white print or black and white film. Anyone can flip a switch in Photoshop. That's not what this site is about. That's what makes it special.

    Anyway, don't take it personally. There's something for everyone here.
     
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  15. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Stone,

    The rules were here before you joined APUG. It isn't put in place to neither exclude you or include you. Here's what it says:

    Please refrain from posting any images that have been manipulated digitally such as converting color images to black and white...


    It specifically excludes what you are proposing to do. How about this? Put your slide on a light table. Shoot it with B&W using a macro lens. Then scan THAT. Since the "manipulation" is done in analog fashion, and film scan is allowed, you will be able to post your image.

    I have done this myself from B&W negative to B&W positive-negative. It is easy and works very well. I even have an image posted on gallery using this method.

    Try it.
     
  16. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

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    As to what Michael was referring to: I also find it difficult to get proper reproduction of print quality in the gallery with a print scan, so I will sometimes scan the neg and manipulate it as close as possible to the print. I think that's fairly common and acceptable.
     
  17. Dan Henderson

    Dan Henderson Member

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    I agree with others: even though I think your black and white manipulation is nice, I think the blue print adds an interesting and distinctive element. Sometimes things happen. Sometimes they are bad and other times they are good. This is good. Embrace it.
     
  18. Dinesh

    Dinesh Subscriber

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    With an average of 9 posts per day, are you really being excluded?
     
  19. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    If you wanted to print a slide optically, there are alternatives. Just thinking about some of the things that used to be done before digital became prominent.
    You could project your slide onto panchromatic sheet film, for example. Or use a slide duplicator and photograph the slide with b&w film. Or use a macro lens and photograph the slide when it's back-lit, using b&w film.

    I also agree with what Blansky said - chalk it up to learning experience.
     
  20. batwister

    batwister Member

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    Has more of a beguiling quality in blue. Pretty lifeless in black and white, to be brutally honest.
     
  21. zsas

    zsas Member

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    These kinds of discussions occur ever so often, below is what Sean said re a similar thread:



    OP, see this thread:

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/96083-bw-develop-print-scan-14.html
     
  22. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser

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    hi stone

    you can probably print it optically as a black and white image
    in a single step using ilford direct positive paper.
    i haven't used it yet, a lot of people make in camera prints with ...
    and i am guessing it can be enlarged on.

    otherwise you can ask a lab to make a black and white print ( as a negative )
    and you can go to the hobby store and get sun print paper, and a sheet of glass, and some wax
    you heat up the print on the stove, rub wax on it, wipe up the excess
    then put it on the sun paper, and in the sun for a long while ...
    it will be blue, just like the original image ( sun prints are blue )
    if you want to get rid of the blue .. get some super washing soda at the grocery store
    and put some in a pan big enough to fit the negative ...
    then soak the print
    get some fresh water to rinse it ..

    its pretty easy, and almost effortless and you don't need a darkroom or fancy chemicals..

    have fun !
    john
     
  23. pbromaghin

    pbromaghin Subscriber

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    +1

    I really do like the blue.
     
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  24. winger

    winger Subscriber

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    I'm going to +1 on this, too.

    And, yes, converting to B&W using digital means is specifically a no-no in the gallery rule book. I have a few I love, but have just posted elsewhere.
     
  25. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    There's a lot to reply to...

    For those that think its easy to find ilfochrome paper and chemistry, tell me where, I've been trying to print a Kodachrome slide I have since last year and have only found one person who has the paper but no chemistry. So I call BS on that.

    I also want to reiterate that I still don't know where I can even get an optical print from a lab, I know there are probably a few places in NY but I don't sell a lot of prints and its never mattered to anyone except you guys, and since no one has asked to buy a print from me, I've not looked. There's only one photo lab around here (I actually live in CT) and they don't print optically.

    All the stuff you guys suggest costs a lot of money, it's truly a stupid thing to go and make a print and waste more film to make a copy by photographing the print with B&W film (on 35mm when the image is 120 so you're also losing tons of detail) and then process and scan that all just to post it in my gallery, that's really quite a waste if time and money and frankly I can't see why anyone would bother doing that just for an APUG gallery. I'm already scanning it, so I've introduced non-traditional process in the mix, what the hell's the difference after that.

    I'm not saying I'm mad about the policies, I got over that a while ago, I'm saying that the suggestions for "traditional work around" a are honestly kind of dumb, and the suggestion that its EASY to traditionally print slides is a joke. If its do easy why don't I send you my slides and you can make lots of prints for me :smile:

    I like you all, and thanks for the thorough amount of response, but you're all nuts :smile:

    For those that simply answered my initial question, I thank you. And those that complimented my photo as it stands with no conversion, I thank you, and I agree I like the color, it's just so far from the original tone, that's why I felt B&W might be better.

    For those that suggested wild ideas, I just ask you to realize its not not fair to me because I have no access, I guess that's why I get set off buy these suggestions, because I have no one who I can even approach to do this for me and certainly no way to do it myself. Yes I post A LOT because I don't have a single film person in my life, NO ONE shoots film that I know, even the pro's I know don't shoot any film and don't have a clue, and it makes me feel lonely, so I come here to talk about it. I would certainly post less if there were real film interactions in my daily life.

    I just woke up mind you so I'm a little grumpy, I haven't had coffee and my car broke last night, have to work on that and I have $60 in my bank account right now... Not in a great mood so sorry if I sound like a jerk, I'm not I swear.


    ~Stone

    Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  26. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser

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    stone

    call blue moon, they can probably make a print for you, and they are an apug sponsor.