APX and Rodinal: The Dynamic Duo

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Snapshot, May 16, 2007.

  1. Snapshot

    Snapshot Member

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    Hi All,

    I've been experimenting with APX 100 and Rodinal. This combination seems to work well together as I generally like how APX turns out. However, I'm thinking the recommended Agfa development time is a little too long. The negatives seem overdeveloped and there's significant grain (which isn't a surprise). Although I'm expecting some grain, I believe the grain can be a little less pronounced than the results I'm seeing.

    I'm using a 1:50 dilution ratio and developing for 17 minutes at EI 100. Initial agitation is for 30 seconds and 5 seconds every half minute. Can anyone give me their preferred Rodinal dilution and development technique, especially if it involves APX 100. Thanks in advance!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2007
  2. P C Headland

    P C Headland Subscriber

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    I believe their times are rather long, something about developing to a higher contrast index?

    My preferred method for APX100 (120) and Rodinal is: Rodinal 1+100 at 20C for 20 minutes. Five inversions at the start of each minute for the first three minutes, then one inversion every three minutes. Expose at box speed.
     
  3. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    AGFA considers normal contrast index to be 0.65. Most of us would rather have about 0.56 for average scenes, so it's no wonder the AGFA recommentation is too hot for comfort. Agitation for 5 seconds every minute may do the job.

    Are you seeing grain at normal viewing distance? That would be about 18 inches from a 10X enlargement of a full 35 mm frame. Don't let grain sniffers near your pictures.
     
  4. Michael W

    Michael W Member

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    I've been using APX 100 in Rodinal & I took the times from the massive dev chart.
    Rodinal 1:50 is 13 minutes & gives me good results.
    Gentle agitation for the first 30 seconds & then 10 seconds at the start of each minute.

    17 minutes sounds like too much.
     
  5. Earl Dunbar

    Earl Dunbar Member

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    I agree with PC Headland; EI 100, 1:100, 20m @ 20C, but my agitation is a bit less. 30 sec. initial agitation, then 3 gentle inversions every 3 minutes. Gives beautiful negs, but YMMV depending on whether you want to enlarge with condensor or diffusion enlarger, or are only scanning, as blasphemous as the latter may be. :surprised:
     
  6. highpeak

    highpeak Member

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    That's exactly what I have been doing with this combo. It worked very nice so far, give me good sharpness and little grain.
     
  7. Snapshot

    Snapshot Member

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    It may be that I'm agitating too much and that's why there's is some over development.
     
  8. Harry Lime

    Harry Lime Member

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    The magic combinations as far as I am concerned. I cut development time a little, because the contrast was creeping up. Agitate gently.

    I used to shoot APX100 in Rodinal with my Summicron collapsible or Summicron Dual Range. Printed on AGFA Classic VC Fiber (glossy) it was sheer magic. The prints just glowed and even laymen noticed it. This was a huge loss when AGFA went to the great darkroom in the sky.

    The glow is even somewhat visible in a highly compressed jpeg like this shot I made last year at the Getty Center in Los Angeles.

    http://elanphotos.com/ElanFotos/Portfolio/pages/slide_100.htm

    You can almost read the letters on the plaque, next to the stairs. This was with the 35 Summilux ASPH.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2007
  9. Mark Antony

    Mark Antony Member

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    APX

    I miss the Agfa papers especially Record Rapid.
    I have stocked up with APX 100 but only have 35mm would love some 120.
    Agfa times in Rodinal are a little long and as has been noted for high contrast, I like Apx 100 20 mins at 1:100, the 400 I rate at 1:50 for 18 mins (rather than the recommended 30!).
    here is a shot on APX400
    [​IMG]

    I tried to give the Record rapid colour and 'glow' not sure how it will look on your monitors.
    I test some films on my blog
    http://photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
     
  10. highpeak

    highpeak Member

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    According to the "darkroom cook book", for the developing time you used, the agitation is too much. It recommend 1 minute agitation at the beginning and 10 seconds every start of the minute. Over agitation will produce more grain and overdevelopment. Also when agitate, try to reverse directions, make sure even development.

    good luck,

    Alex W.
     
  11. highpeak

    highpeak Member

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    Forgot to ask you, did you do pre-soak?

    I don't use pre-soak for this combo.
     
  12. Snapshot

    Snapshot Member

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    Well, this explains the results I'm getting. Not bad results, just not quite what I was hoping for. I'll adjust and see if that helps. BTW, I don't pre-soak the film before developing.
     
  13. fschifano

    fschifano Member

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    No doubt, the Agfa recommended times are for a contrast index of 0.65, which is a bit hot for many subjects.

    Consider that Agfa is from northern Europe where the weather is often dark, gloomy, and overcast. Film developed to a contrast index of 0.56 would be a bit flat for printing on a #2 grade, or maybe even a #3 grade, paper. So maybe there is some logical reason for that recommendation. Lower the contrast of your film in the usual ways; decrease development time, increase dilution, decrease agitation - you know what to do.
     
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  15. Petzi

    Petzi Member

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    I would be willing to part with a couple rolls of APX 100 - 120 if it makes you happy. And I am going to look into the Record Rapid issue also. :D Used to be my favourite paper...
     
  16. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

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    An important element about over agitating is that overagitation has a limiting impact on the agacency effects gained by the use of the dilute developer.
    Anscojohn, Mount Vernon, Virginia, USA
     
  17. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    I remember the APX100 and Rodinal combination with fondness. I think I got equally amazing results with Efke R100 and the same developer, with the Efke perhaps being a little bit richer. What I liked was the fine grain (even with Rodinal) along with the sharpness.
    Rodinal is still sold and available but APX100 is becoming more and more scarce since its obsolesence, so I dropped the subject alltogether and started using Ilford FP4+ for most of my purposes, and I've never looked back.
    If you have a lot of APX100 lying around, then have fun with it! I loved it.

    - Thomas
     
  18. Mark Antony

    Mark Antony Member

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    That would be awesome, and it would make me :D :D very happy.
    How much? trade something?
    Thanks
    Mark
     
  19. Gary Holliday

    Gary Holliday Member

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    I thought Rollei Retro 100 was the same film as APX 100.
     
  20. Mark Antony

    Mark Antony Member

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    Yes I've read that, but...
    Remember that the Agfa Leverkusen plant has shut, and according to my sources the machinery has gone; who make it now Maco? did they buy the machinery?

    I'm not sure I haven't tried the Retro, I'd like the opinion of those who have as to if it is indeed re-badged APX
     
  21. Gary Holliday

    Gary Holliday Member

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    Did they buy the technique and technicians?....who knows.
     
  22. jim appleyard

    jim appleyard Member

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    I believe the Rollei 100 is leftover APX 100; plenty around in 35mm. I always assumed that Maco made nothing, just bought from others and put it in their own box.
     
  23. Fotohuis

    Fotohuis Member

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    More clear information about the Rollei Retro films is not available, from the marketing manager himself in a German forum, same question. Rollei/Maco has two film production locations: Filmotec (Wolfen, Germany) and Gevaert (Mortsel, Belgium).

    Guten Tag, mein Name ist Sebastian Junghans, ich bin im Marketing bei Rollei/Maco tätig und möchte gerne versuchen, auf Ihre Fragen zu antworten.

    1. Stimmt es eigentlich....
    Ja, es stimmt, die unter der Marke ROLLEI RETRO konfektionierten Filme, KB wie RF stammen aus der letzten Grossproduktion der Agfa im Jahr 2005.

    2. Violett.
    Bei dem, was Ihnen aufgefallen ist, handelt es sich um nicht gänzlich aufgelösten Sensibilisierungsfarbstoff. Wenn ein frisches, gutes Fixierbad verwendet wurde und ausreichend gewässert, dann kann trotzdem eine rötliche Einfärbung, die durchaus auch bei Filmen anderer Hersteller nicht unbekannt ist, vorliegen. Dies ist fotochemisch kein Nachteil. Diese Einfärbung verschwindet unter Einfluss von Tageslicht, bzw. UV-Licht rückstandsfrei.

    3. Rollen / Curlingverhalten
    Die unter Rollei Retro angebotenen Filme wurden ursprünglich nicht für den Einsatz als Rollfilm vorgesehen, sondern als KB-Filme. Daher ist der grau gefärbte Triacetatfilmträger etwas dicker als sonst von Agfa APX-Rollfilmen gewohnt. Standard war: 100 Mikron bei RF, 135 Mikron bei KB. Das mag einen Einfluss auch auf das Planlage-Verhalten der Filme haben.

    4. Planlage
    Auf das Planlage-Verhalten haben jedoch auch Parameter, wie die Wässerung und die Trocknung einen wichtigen Einfluss. Mit der Verwendung von spezielllen Filmentwicklern hat das erfahrungsgemäss nichts zu tun.

    5. Entscheidung zur Produktion von APX-Rollfilmen
    In der Abwägung keine APX Rollfilme mehr anbieten zu können oder eine vielleicht nicht ganz optimale Planlage zu akzeptieren, hatte sich Rollei/Maco dazu entschlossen, eine sehr erhebliche Menge APX Filme mit 135 Mikron durch die Fotokemika in Zagreb abpacken zu lassen.

    6. Entwicklungszeiten:
    Die "alten" APX-Emulsionen verlangten kürzere Entwicklungszeiten als die "NEW"-Version die noch im Jahr 2005 durch die Agfa eingeführt wurde. Die Belichtungstoleranzen von "NEW" sind erheblich weiter als bei der älteren Version. Dem hat bisher die A&O mit der neuen Rodinal-Zeitentabelle entsprochen. Hier sind deutliche Differenzen zu erkennen. Bei der Version "NEW" handelt es sich zweifelsfrei um die erheblich verbesserte Version. Die Zeiten für die "NEW"-Version haben bisher noch keinen Eingang in die Entwicklungszeit-Tabellen der Tetenal gefunden.

    Mit freundlichem Gruss / With kind regards

    Sebastian Junghans
    Marketing Manager
    MACO PHOTO PRODUCTS
    Hans O. Mahn & Co KG
    Brookstieg 4
    22145 Hamburg-Stapelfeld
    Telefon: +49 (0) 40 23 70 08-73
    Telefax: +49 (0) 40 23 70 08-488
    E-Mail: junghans@mahn.net
    Web: http://www.mahn.net + http://www.rolleifilm.com (USA)
    Handelsregister Lübeck HRA 2205
    Umsatzsteuer-ID-Nummer DE118812398
    Maco Photo Products ist Mitglied im Photoindustrie Verband e.V.
    http://www.photoindustrie-verband.de
     
  24. Mark Antony

    Mark Antony Member

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    Thanks for that
    My German is not good but does the text posted mean that 35mm Rollei is the last batch of APX made at Leverkusen? and that 120 rolls are KB emulsions made in Zagreb by EFKE/Adox?

    I ask this because I'd like to get my hands on some 120 APX especially the 400 as I have never tried that film.
    APX 100 is probably my favourite film, but I've not used any 120 since the 80's!

    Possibly I'll e-mail the guy in the link or just enjoy the 35mm stuff and look to Foma for 120
     
  25. Fotohuis

    Fotohuis Member

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    Correct, all Retro films are made of the same 135 micron film material from the APX 100/400 master rolls and the 120 roll film versions were assembled by Efke, Croatia. The 35mm versions are done in Bergheim, Germany. Here all 35mm materials from Rollei/Maco comming from Filmotec and Gevaert are manufactured.
    Explained is that the 135 micron material is slightly less flat than the original 100 micron material which was former used by Agfa for the 120 roll film versions on tri-acetate base.

    For future assembly of 120 roll films in Europe, the choices are limited for Ilford, Foma or Efke. But you can indentify them all easily on their used backing paper :smile:
     
  26. jim appleyard

    jim appleyard Member

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    Don't kill yourself trying to find/shoot APX 400 in 120. It's getting scarce and expensive. I shot quite a bit of it when it was out and it's good, but not any better than Tri-X, HP-5, or Neopan 400. The price was quite good tho'! I miss APX 400, but I miss it the least of the discontinued films. Just my $.02.