Arer these FP4+ results typical?

Discussion in 'Exposure Discussion' started by ericdan, May 26, 2014.

  1. ericdan

    ericdan Subscriber

    Messages:
    521
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    I shoot a roll of FP4+ @200 on sunday. I developed it using ID-11 according to the instructions in the film packaging.
    http://flic.kr/s/aHsjYoufF7



    1. stock dev for 10 mins (agitate 10sec every min)
    2. ilford stop bath for 10 seconds
    3. ilford rapid fix for 3 mins
    4. 5 mins wash
    5. 30seconds fuji flo

    I don't know what it is, but the photos don't look as punchy as I'd like them to be.
    Would Tri-X at 200 be punchier? Or should I change something when developing the film?

    Thanks
     
  2. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,032
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    You can change the contrast to give punchier images in the printing stage or post scanning - DPUG is the place to discuss that aspect.

    Tri-X @ 200EI will give flatter negatives and greater detail in the tones, so would shooting FP4 at a slower speed.

    Ian
     
  3. Xmas

    Xmas Member

    Messages:
    6,451
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2006
    Location:
    UK
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Where Ilford say

    3 mins in rapid fix Id use 6 minutes
    5 -10 mins wash Id use 10 minutes

    this gets you archival permenance...

    The EI you set on the meter depends on how you meter but it is less risky to shoot at half speed (50) for FP than double speed (200).

    HP5+ at 200 if you need 200

    Microphen (or similar Kodak) gets a 1/3 stop if you need speed.
     
  4. Regular Rod

    Regular Rod Member

    Messages:
    671
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Location:
    Derbyshire
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Change exposure not developer in this case. Box speed FP4 Plus is a good start (125 ISO)

    RR
     
  5. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,508
    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I think you are probably trying to solve the problem with the wrong variable, the film.

    Yes, switching films will get you a different result but there's no telling if you'll like the result better and switching films for this type of issue is actually a classic symptom of magic bullet chasing. Magic bullets (magic film/developer combos) do not exist. Both FP4+ and Tri X are excellent, but both will also take work and adjustments to your process to get the exact result you prefer.

    The punchiness of the print is adjustable, looking at the results you posted I'd say the issue is probably in your printing process, not the film choice or processing.

    If you want punchier you can simply adjust to a harder paper grade rather than changing the film development. If you find yourself always adjusting to a harder grade you can experiment with upping the film development time to say 11 or 12 or whatever. The instructions provided suggest that the times listed are just a starting point, it is normal to have to adjust them.

    There are many reasons why a contrast adjustment may be needed. One example is the camera lenses we choose, my old large format camera lenses seem to make negatives that need a little harder paper than my Mamiya or Nikons, my Holga even harder. Another example is the lighting of the scene, another is the subject matter itself, and yet another is your mood.

    If the result you're judging is created digitally then there is a whole extra layer of complexity that may be hiding what the negative is really showing you and neither switching films nor adjusting development may change things the way you hope, nor even be necessary to get what you want.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2014
  6. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

    Messages:
    7,470
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Typical negatives have around seven-tenths the overall contrast of the original scene; keep this in mind when evaluating negatives on a light table. Print them on #3 paper and see how they look. If they are still lacking in contrast, increase development by 25% for the next roll.
     
  7. hoffy

    hoffy Member

    Messages:
    2,333
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Location:
    Adelaide, Au
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I personally don't think that the images are too flat. It also looked a bit overcast in a few of them. This will always have an effect.

    But, of course, YMMV.
     
  8. ericdan

    ericdan Subscriber

    Messages:
    521
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    That's right it was overcast. The blue sky just stated to show towards the end of the roll. I need to try FP4+ again on a sunny day and maybe at box speed and start experimenting from there.
     
  9. Hatchetman

    Hatchetman Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,199
    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    looks great to me. as noted, the printing process is where you can increase the contrast.
     
  10. ericdan

    ericdan Subscriber

    Messages:
    521
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    I am still practicing the printing part. Thanks a lot for all the replies.
     
  11. Richard S. (rich815)

    Richard S. (rich815) Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,958
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Why did you shoot FP4+ at 200? What was your metering technique? Can you show us an example of what you'd consider the kind of "punch" you were hoping for in another image?
     
  12. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,508
    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    We all are. :wink:
     
  13. ericdan

    ericdan Subscriber

    Messages:
    521
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    I shot FP4+ because I wanted to try it out. Heard many good things about the film on this forum. My metering technique was sunny 16. So for hazy sun I go one stop down. F11 at 1/250th for most of them. Sometimes when I wanted to freeze the waves I shot it at f8 and 1/500th.
    I shot Tri-X 400 at 400 a few week back. (I like those results better somehow) See here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsjYtemJF
    Although this was also with flash mostly and on the GR1v.
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,508
    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm not understanding your "one stop down" thought.

    f/11 at 1/250 is the same EV setting as f/16 at 1/125, as is f/8 at 1/500. Your settings are all variants of sunny 16 at box speed, EI 125, not EI 200.

    Sunny 16 at EI 200 would be f/11 at 1/400 or f/16 at 1/200 or f/8 at 1/800.
     
  16. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,032
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Because it was overcast you got away with shooting @ 200EI. in fact that probably increased the contrast slightly in your favor. If you read Ansel Adams - Thwe Negative that would be around N+1 using the Zone System.

    The Negative is one of the best books on Film exposure and processing well worth buying a copy.

    Ian
     
  17. ericdan

    ericdan Subscriber

    Messages:
    521
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    f/8 at 1/500 so I can freeze the wave. I understand that it's the same as f/11 at 1/250th.
    My understanding of sunny 16 is: f/16 at 1/250th on a sunny day if I shoot iso200 film.
    Since it was overcast but still bright I opened the aperture to f/11.
    By 'sunny 16' i mean that I start at sunny 16 and then adjust according to the light. In this case opening up the aperture to f/11.
    Maybe I should've kept it the same because the sand was almost white and reflecting, too.
     
  18. Richard S. (rich815)

    Richard S. (rich815) Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,958
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Seeing more info now and looking again at the images I think your contrast is in line as to what was to be expected. I see in your Flickr stream you shoot a lot of digital and often with flash and I see a lot of "punch". Perhaps used to that you find these FP4+ images lacking punch in your mind...
     
  19. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,508
    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I see your line of thought now.

    You seem to be thinking about exposure like you are shooting slides or jpeg's; like there is a direct link between exact camera exposure and the result.

    With negatives that isn't true.

    Using FP4+ in DD-X for my normal subject matter, I can normally make almost exactly the same print from any frame shot anywhere between the EI's of 250 and 25, developed with RolloPyro FP4+'s range falls between EI's 160 and 6, at least for me.

    Enlarger exposure is simply adjusted to "correct" for the variance in EI. Adjusting enlarger exposure allows me to pick the range of info I want off the negative.

    b.jpg

    In this illustration only the info between the red lines prints, the red lines are the black and white points of the paper. When printing nothing outside the lines shows detail. Adjusting enlarger exposure moves these lines up or down in tandem, adjusting paper grade moves the lines closer or further apart.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2014
  20. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

    Messages:
    7,470
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Overcast days have about a 3 stop shorter brightness range than sunny days. Typically, when using rollfilm, one would print the frames from overcast scenes on a higher grade paper.
     
  21. Jaf-Photo

    Jaf-Photo Member

    Messages:
    493
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I can't see your photo, but FP4 typically produces very smooth gradients.

    If you want high contrast you have to add it afterwards.

    I did shoot some FP4 at EI 400 by accident but it came out fine with XTOL.
     
  22. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,210
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Location:
    Florida
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Your exposure and development is as contrastyas I would go with that film.If you want more ,it has to come from the printing.
     
  23. bernard_L

    bernard_L Subscriber

    Messages:
    414
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Shooter:
    35mm
    How are the members of this forum to judge whether your negatives lack (or not) punch from a digitized version? The S***r adjusts (stretch/shrink) automagically the values present on the film to fit into 0-255. I don't dare go into details for fear my post would be deteted because referring to the D thing.
    I recently under-developed some film (wrong published times) to a contrast index of 0.45, barely printable on grade 4.5. But my S***d files look quite good. As mentioned by other responders, what counts is what you can print under the enlarger.

    Something else. From accumulated measurements with known good light meters, I found (and I'm not alone in that respect) that "sunny 16" should really be "sunny 11" in most cases. And, if significant open shadows are present (not dominant) in the picture, that becomes "sunny 8".
     
  24. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,508
    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Simple for me, the OP said so.

    Those are fair choices, simply because it gets you what you want.

    It is really rare for me to "need" more exposure than box speed.
     
  25. TheToadMen

    TheToadMen Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,969
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2012
    Location:
    Netherlands, EU
    Shooter:
    Pinhole
    Shoot two films of the same type on the same day under the same settings and with the same camera. Develop one film yourself and send one film to a professional lab. Then check witch negatives you like best.
     
  26. Xmas

    Xmas Member

    Messages:
    6,451
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2006
    Location:
    UK
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    The OP shot FP4+ @200 in ID11 that is less than box speed id not try 200 in Microphen...