Autochrome Latex

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by shaz, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hello,

    First i like to excuse me for my bad english. I am french and i think that i forget a little bit my english. :whistling:
    I am trying to reproduce autochrome. I am searching for "crepe latex not-smoked". I am not sure that i use the good words in english.
    Perhaps one of you know where I can buy this latex ? It seem really hard to find this latex if you just want 10 kg by example.

    thank you in advance for your answers and help.

    Shaz
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2011
  2. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    shaz:

    Welcome to APUG!

    You need not apologize for your English - it is much better than my French.

    There are a fair number of francophones here on APUG, so you may want to post the name of what you are looking for in French as well.
     
  3. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hi MattKing,

    Thank you for your message. It's a good idea to put my message in french.
    Go:

    Bonjour à toutes et à tous,

    Ayant décidé de tenter une reproduction des plaques autochromes, je me trouve face à un des nombreux problème que suscite l'Autochrome. Je suis à la recherche de latex crêpe non fumé. Le plus dur dans cette recherche est de trouver quelqu'un qui ne m'en vendrait que 10 kilo par exemple.

    Merci par avance pour votre aide.

    Shaz
     
  4. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hello,

    I found the good words in english : Pale Latex Crepe.

    Thank you in advance for your help.

    Shaz
     
  5. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hello everybody,

    Just a little up of my message :tongue: .

    This pale latex crepe is for the first "varnish". It's for glue the patatoe starch on the glass.

    Thank you in advance.

    Shaz
     
  6. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Hey Shaz,

    I think that you will have to be the original researcher for this kind of information. Many people love autochromes, but few are passionate enough to do the legwork.

    The odds of finding the same thing that the Lumieres used is slim-to-none. You'll probably have to discover a new material that is available in modern times.

    Your varnish will have to be very thin, and optically clear. Canada balsam comes to mind. Even a thin layer of gelatin might be suitable.

    Good luck, and please share what you find.

    Au revoir,

    holmburgers
     
  7. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hello holmburgers,

    Thank you for your help...i will look the Canada balsam... i am curious.
    Now i know what sort of enterprise use the pale latex crepe and i phone to one in France. They make bandage for example. I will have an answer on tuesday. I hope they will sell me this famous pale latex crepe.

    I cross all the fingers i have :laugh: .

    Last thursday i saw in a microscope that someone lend me the patatoe strach...i understand now, why the Lumière used this. It is so clear, and it looks transparent. I will try to adapt a tube to take pictures with my Nikon.
    I am looking for a sieve of 15 microns not to expensive too.

    Goodbye and i hope good news soon.

    Shaz
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2011
  8. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Hello Shaz ,

    What is your information source ? Where do you research autochrome ? Did you see the dye chemistry thread in APUG ? How will you press the glass ?

    Please give us more details ,

    I read someone saying crystal clear epoxy for glue the starch grains on to glass. But it tooks hours or day to set and your epoxy hardener might be very fresh otherwise you get yellow cast.

    Not every epoxy is clear grade , you must call CIBA dealer to find crystal clear epoxy. Canada balsam is famous to disintegrate with moisture. But epoxy stay hundreds of years.

    I will make a list of old threads in 20 minutes.

    And I will pm you , take a look in to your message box.

    Best ,

    Umut
     
  9. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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  10. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hello Mustafa,

    My information source is the book of B.Lavédrine.
    I want to try to make exactly how it is describe in the book.
    You can find all the products in the book, but by example for the pale latex crepe, i have to find an enterprise which is ready to sell me 5 kilo. Otherwise you have to buy 1 ton at the exporter.

    I think that pressing the glass is not the most difficult moment. For me, the Lumière use a machine, because it's too long if a person must do it. The machine press at 7000 kilo, but at the end of the needle you have perhaps 70 kilo. Someone in my photo club work on industrial press..he said me that he is ready to help me....I thought in something : I will drill the ball of a ball bearing, put an axe, a handle and press myself....perhaps it will work.

    Thank you for your link, i'm gone read it.

    Shaz
     
  11. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Shaz ;

    Contact with the exporter and learn who buy ton of that stuff. May be you can buy from the end user.
    You can not predict the exact dyes from the book , my link cover that stuff. Sigma is the seller of much of that dyes. My link cover how you will dye the starch. One of the two reds is very expensive.
    And most importantly , the problem is panchromatic emulsion. I learned from Photo Engineer , no emulsion sensitizer today does not match with the curves of autochrome graphs at the book.
    So if you want to do the original autochrome , you must change the recipe at the book and the link.
    Yes every chemical available except the sensitizers in the emulsion. May be book covers that but it is in french. What book suggest for the sensitizers ? Please share .

    Thank you ,

    Umut
     
  12. shaz

    shaz Member

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    For the end user of the pale latex crepe i found : "France Neir" ; for the moment.
    For the Dyes i found : "Coger". Thank you for "Sigma". I will have a look.
    In the book of B.Lavédrine, all the process for dying the patatoe starch is explained.
    For the panchromatic emulsion i found a photograph who is ready to send me a litlle bit of this emulsion...if i resolve all the problems before.
    Here i found this:

    http://glsmyth.com/AltProcess/Articles/DyeTransfer.htm

    This is all for the moment.

    Shaz
     
  13. c.d.ewen

    c.d.ewen Subscriber

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    Shaz:

    It was my impression that the surface of the glass plate was first coated with optical-quality pitch, into which the starch particles would be imbedded. I had also read that optical-quality beeswax was added to the pitch, in order to improve adhesion.

    Pitch is used by amateur telescope makers. A good source would be Willmann-Bell. They have both the pitch and the beeswax, in addition to a mixed version, called Burgundy pitch.

    Individuals may have difficulty purchasing from Sigma, due to the high level of paranoia in American food-related industries. I purchased some potato starch from them several years ago, and had to justify my purchase to a high standard. Fortunately, at the time, I was in a food manufacturing industry (I owned a brewery), and they allowed the sale. Perhaps they've loosened their standards by now, but that's to be determined.

    Charley

    ps: I have the Lavédrine book, and it is spectacularly beautiful. Alas, my French is almost nonexistant now, and I struggle to get through a few pages now and again. On which page is the "pale latex crepe" reference?
     
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  15. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hello c.d.ewen,

    For the patatoe starch, i found the seller in France. Now i have to do a sort; by "lévigation" or with a sieve of 15 microns first.

    In the book for the first varnish you need :

    -pale latex crepe
    -benzine
    -résène ( résène is from the "gomme de dammar" ) i think in in english you say "gum of dammar" . But you need just the wax (résène) of the "gum of dammar". To take the wax you put the "gum of dammar" in the "acétate d'éthyle".

    Pale latex crepe is not referenced in the book....someone tell me :wink: .

    For the second varnish something make me afraid..because you need to found "nitrate de cellulose" = nitocellulose ????

    Shaz
     
  16. paul_c5x4

    paul_c5x4 Subscriber

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    When reading references about autochrome plates, I saw "pine pitch" mentioned - Damar Gum could well be the material that was used. You should be able to purchase small quantities from a traditional artist's supplier such as Cornelissen. Damar will dissolve in pure turpentine (not a substitute).

    would be cellulose varnish - Also available from an artist supplier or anyone selling automotive paints. Very flamable stuff, but not explosive :smile:
     
  17. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hello paul_c5x4,

    Yes, the damar gum is mentionned in the book of B.Lavédrine. In this book you can read that this gum is dissolved in "acétate d'éthyle"...i don't know the good word in english. :sad: :laugh: .

    I have the answer of an enterprise which sell varnish and they said to me that all the cellulose varnish are not transparent....they say to take a polyuréthane/acrylique varnish. Now i have to know how is made this varnish...imagine that it dissolve the first varnish .

    Shaz
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2011
  18. shaz

    shaz Member

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    I found on internet a cellulose varnish without color. :smile: :smile:

    Shaz
     
  19. paul_c5x4

    paul_c5x4 Subscriber

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    From brenntag.be CAS No: 141-78-6 - ethyl acetate (Not that much different to the French name).

    I have found that it is often a waste of time talking to industrial suppliers when trying to find ingredients for old processes. Try instead, a specialist art shop that can supply raw ingredients to make paint in the style of Van Gogh or Picasso.

    Nitro-cellulose varnish (lacquer) is no longer used in the quantities that it was and most people use an acrylic or polyurethane varnish - Neither of these would have been available to the Lumière brothers in 1903. It is likely that they used Shellac for the final coating.
     
  20. shaz

    shaz Member

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    You're right, it's not so different :tongue: .

    I think that i keep cellulose varnish for the Autochrome. I'm gone try to find a specialist artshop like you say, perhaps he would tell me the composition. Just for make the difference with Lumière varnish.

    Thank you for your help :smile: .

    Shaz
     
  21. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Cellulose varnish is widest used musical instrument varnish coat in the world. You must pressure spray it from a narrow nozzle and you can find these machines from many art supply stores. And of course you can find it clear.
     
  22. shaz

    shaz Member

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    It will be easier to buy a cellulose varnish rather than make one. :laugh: .
    It's like the first varnish...Lumière don't invent it, i found an old recipe (about 1850 if i remenber) based on pale latex crepe and benzine... I think that Lumière was very crafty :laugh: :laugh: .

    Shaz
     
  23. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hello everybody,

    Just a little message for say that i have perhaps found a latex for the first varnish.
    An enterprise in France seem ready to sell me latex ADS (air dried sheet). This latex is unsmoke. They tell me the answer tomorrow. I cross all my fingers :laugh: .
    If it's good i will start the first varnish soon....cross all your fingers with me.

    Shaz
     
  24. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    *fingers crossed*

    You're doing awesome work... keep it up!
     
  25. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Thank you holmburgers,

    Cross all your fingers for me for tomorrow. :laugh:

    Shaz
     
  26. shaz

    shaz Member

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    Hello everybody,

    You know what ! I'm happy. I'm gone buy it the 27...of this month :tongue: .
    I will put some photos. It cost 30 euros for 3 kilos. It's not expensive.

    Shaz
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2011