B&W positives.

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by f/16, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. f/16

    f/16 Member

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    Is dr5 the only option for this? Are there any B&W positive films available?
     
  2. jnovek

    jnovek Member

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    I've done a little bit of this, but not a lot. Check this out --

    http://www.angelfire.com/wi/spqrspqr/photo/bwreversal.html

    Any B&W film can be developed as a reversal, usually the true speed as a reversal is not the same as its box speed and you have to do some experimentation to figure it out. Dr5 may have good numbers on their website for that.

    Jason
     
  3. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

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    Just out of curiosity...are you planning on projecting or something? I've pondered this myself, but never have tried but am curious as to your intentions.
     
  4. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    there's a LOT of stuff on that here and on DIY motion picture forums/sites.

    chemicals are available at formulary and I think kodak may still have their direct reversal kit for tmax 100

    ilford's website has a .pdf on how to do it with their films

    kodak motion picture division sells direct reversal 35mm film (large, motion picture rolls) and chemicals for their direct reversal process.

    any black and white film can be reversal processed---it's the same as processing it twice
     
  5. Steve Roberts

    Steve Roberts Member

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    Do a search for a thread headed 'Reversal Problems'. After the initial questions and answers there is some very good information from member 'Existing Light'. I followed his method and on my second attempt produced some fair B/W slides. My experiments have been on hold for a few months, but the important things I discovered were that a) Ilford FP4 that I used should be rated at 25ASA, b) though the process looks complicated, it's actually quite forgiving and c) it's worth investing in a small electronic balance (c.£20 in UK) and some cheap plastic vessels to mix up the numerous potions!
    Good luck,
    Steve
     
  6. Poisson Du Jour

    Poisson Du Jour Member

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    FOMA makes a B&W reversal film in 35mm: Fomapan R, as ISO100.
     
  7. frobozz

    frobozz Subscriber

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    I've been playing with Kodak's 5360 Direct MP film (I've actually got the Estar version, which is 2360, and the prototype of the Estar version, which is SO-291) which is a film for making copy projection prints and comes in 1000 foot rolls. With another test or two, so I can show people what its capabilities are, I'll likely be selling off a few 100 foot rolls of it in the For Sale forum.

    It's got an EI of something less than 1 (you read that right) which can make it even more useful, or a huge pain, depending on what you plan to do with it. Oh, and it's orthochromatic. But it develops with a normal develop/stop/fix/wash process, no trickiness required to make it into a reversal film, it is one by design.

    http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/products/lab/h15360.pdf


    Duncan
     
  8. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    dr5 does an awesome job, but it's somewhat costly and takes a couple weeks (in my experience). I'd recommend doing it yourself if you're into home processing. It's easy and a lot of people here can help out with the details; many great threads to boot. Any film will work.

    I'm not a very experienced home processor and yet my first go at it turned out very pleasing.
     
  9. Роберт

    Роберт Member

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    http://www.schwarzweissdia.de/

    The best results on B&W positiv I have ever seen. But he uses a pretty complex system.
    Fomapan R100 is then really good.

    Best regards,

    Роберт
     
  10. f/16

    f/16 Member

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    No I don't plan on projecting. I would rather look at positives on the light table with loupe-looking at negs is boring.

    And does anyone know where I can get Fomapan R? I've looked on the internet and cannot find any for sale. And does it have to be sent to a special lab to be processed?
     
  11. DarkMagic

    DarkMagic Member

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  12. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    Positives can be made in many ways, not just dr5. You can....

    (1) Dupe a neg with film to make a positive- this is easy contact printing, and with ortho film you can easily develop by inspection;
    (2) Reverse the film yourself, as mentioned above;
    (3) Dupe the neg to fujiroid;
    (4) scan, invert, and send the file to have an LVT positive made ($$$ but very nice);
    (5) ...and there are various other scan/view hybrid possibilities e.g. why not just scan and view it on an ipad or such if you don't need the resolution for projection or printing....

    I've also played all manner of hybrid games e.g. made an inkjet neg and contact printed that etc. Again, if you don't need high res for projection or printing then there are many options.

    Why not just make a high res print and loupe that? I guess it all depends what format we're talking about here, with 35mm that'd not be very fun to loupe :smile:
     
  13. mrred

    mrred Subscriber

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    I went through this about 6 months ago. The patient still lives. I both project and print, using that unmentionable process.

    What you will get is an image with unmistakably super low grain and high sharpness.

    What I would suggest is to shoot a roll and send it to dr5. If you like what you see, then make the effort to proceed.

    I did try the foma kit, if not for any other reason as to have some sort of personal reference point to what I did. It was quite expensive to my door, as I got a $60 boarding charge to get it shipped from Europe. Cost wise, the tmax kit might have been a cheaper alternative. Either way, not a viable option to continue reversals.

    I wanted something to replace every developer with this process, well as much as I could. I keep my xtol for pushing, but so far reversal is here to stay.

    I took notes and layed out what I did here http://myfilmstuff.blogspot.com/2011/04/my-bw-reversal-process.html . It needs to be updated, but the seeds are there (and written post 1950...lol). The focus for me was to use as little acid as possible to keep the emulsion on the film but keeping the bleach effective. There are longer times but it has worked for me.

    The big thing is that it is a process of nuances. It will take time to iron every thing out.

    The best results I have gotten so far is with Neopan 400, PlusX and LuckySHD. Neopan has a really nice contrast and sharpness. Some examples http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterbcarter/sets/72157627520501875/ . All Neopan 400, but some are from my last roll in 120 (sad day and I will miss my friend). They project much better looking than shown there. The detail is amazing. I was surprised how well the LuckySHD turned out. For me it was the crap film that is so cheap that I don't mind burning through. Brace yourselves.. :wink: The PlusX is just classic reversal and you won't be disappointed. I bought 700 ft of it before it went away.
     
  14. brucemuir

    brucemuir Member

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    Dang red, those look fantastic.
    I'm testing a modified Ilford method but it's been on hold for a bit :whistling:

    I was doing a bunch of TMX in 135 because I had some 100 fters but wasn't getting the greatest contrast.

    I did actually get better results with TriX which you would think would deliver LESS contrast.

    Still working on this.
     
  15. mrred

    mrred Subscriber

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    It took me a while to get a handle on it. It is still a stretch for me to look and say "thats what I need to change to get this...". I will get there.

    I think it was key for my *not to add the hypo to the dev* until dev time. I knew I did not want to stick with just one film and that was the only way to implement it. Using a stock solution made that part easier to regulate.

    You do need a very active developer for the first stage. I tried Rodinal, Xtol, D19 and finally Dektol. Rodinal and XTol are just not active enough to be taken seriously. You wind up adding too many things to boost them. D19 was close, but was too expensive when you consider the strength you had to use. Dektol was the clear winner along with the price. The starting point I use now is Dektol 1:1 and about 3ml of my stock in 150ml of dev. A few Strip tests and you will be close enough to your mark.

    The hypo removes the silver to lighten up the image and flatten the curve. Bruce, this is what you have to balance with your films. I tend to favor stronger developer. Earlier on I was having a problem with "spots" which turned out to be using too much hypo and the bleach being too strong. Some of my early tries I was focusing on using weaker devs. Dektol is so cheap, there is not much point.
     
  16. brucemuir

    brucemuir Member

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    Yes, I have struggled with the hypo question.
    I've varied the hypo amount but don't have enough data yet to arrive at a decision.
    I have yet to forgo the hypo completely.
    I've used Rodinol and Bromophen and I think I tried D76 one time also.

    I did this last winter when I had some down time, perhaps it's time to take up where I left off.

    Red, I''ll go read your notes on the blog.
    Thanks for sharing you experiences.
     
  17. mrred

    mrred Subscriber

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    Strip tests allowed me to zero in quickly. I started with my developer of choice and a base of 12 mins dev time. If my strip was too light (rarely happened) I would back off the dev time by a minute. Too dark, I threw in a ml of hypo stock. Reusing the developer until the roll of strips were used up.

    My hypo stock is 16g/500ml. No magic, I had a 500ml bottle laying around... :wink:

    I have not done any tmy yet. I did pick up a 100' roll last week but I have to wait until I have a bulk loader free. Likely I am trigger happy enough that it will not be that long of a wait.
     
  18. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    A while back I got a copy of Haist's Modern Photographic Processing and here is a summary of what he says about reversal processing .

    It's from this thread , B&W Reversal Processing Controls.

    And I used this procedure to get these results from this thread. (gotta love hyperlinks, eh!)

    Reversal processing is fun, easy and cheap! I would never recommend going with one of the kits. Buying the raw chemicals from a place like the Photo Formuarly is nearly nominal in cost when you consider how many feet of film you could process, plus you can alter things at will.

    But the quality of a dr5 chrome is something to behold too! Not quite there yet...
     
  19. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    Yeah...forgot to chime in...it's been a while...I got pre-occupied.

    anywho.....FOR ME the answer is more powerful developers...I tried the bleaching/intensifying thing...it does work...but.....well..you'll see....a very powerful developer will give you the breathing room to work....best is to take the film you have and develop....check it...any silver? NO? ok then take another strip (all unexposed, mind-you)...and develop it a might LONGER...keep doing this till you get silver--(fog)...that's the development time MAX you can get with that film..THEN...shoot a bunch of test pics 100, 200, 400, 800.....develop ALL with a development time LESS than the one that gave you fog...this gives you what you will get with that filim.....this depends on age of film....fog--on big sheets, seems to creep in from the edges....or maybe that's how the developer creeps in...but that's how you do it...no bleaching required to do this...when you get the process down for dev time, then speed, then shoot, deveop, bleach, expose, re-develop, FIX (particulary for tmax type films) and then wash and hang...there you go.

    never used hypo or cyanate...works for me BUT....I DO get grain...or maybe that's jusst me being critical with the loupe....