B&W reversal chems

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by destroya, May 28, 2013.

  1. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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    its time to order more film. ive never shot plus-x before and wanted to try it. i read that a lot of people who have used the orwo UN 54 film say it very similar. on their web site they state that it can also be processed as a reversal film. I love color slides and have never shot B&W slides, so i thought i would do a little digging.

    but when i search for reversal chems i cant seem to find any (pre-made) except for a photo formula designed for tmax. so i have had a hard time finding a recipe to make my own. i'm sure if i had a copy of the darkroom cookbook it would be in there. i was hoping to find something that could be done as it would be cool to have a film that could be developed both ways.

    any ideas?

    thanks
    john
     
  2. R.Gould

    R.Gould Member

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    Foma do a reversal kit, at least they do over here, and they also do a reversal black ands white film
     
  3. pdeeh

    pdeeh Member

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    Foma do a kit which one of the larger US photo distributors may carry.

    Otherwise it's not too hard to find a "how to" online. googling for "B&W reversal development" got me all the results I needed to get started.

    Ilford's site carries a PDF about reversal, and though it specifically names their own developers in it, I followed it to the letter just the other night, changing only the developers for what I had to hand and got excellent results (for a first try) using Lucky film.
     
  4. Oxleyroad

    Oxleyroad Subscriber

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    Here from another thread is a method and the chemical formulation.
     
  5. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    don't try to reverse plus-x--you'll be disappointed unless you have very special circumstances you must photograph. It does have an extremely high dynamic range, but it looks flat for normal scenes.

    there are many many threads on reversal going on. look at the one on "brown stain"--a dude just gave his recipe for reversing fp4. Note that this formula uses hypo in the developer which is something that I avoid, since it reduces quality at the expense of shorter processing times and increased apparent film speed. The best way to start us using a very very strong high contrast developer--d-19 is the go-to recommendation in this case. For bleach, the best, by far, is a dichromate (potassium, ammonium, sodium, whateverum)--these solutions are very stable whereas the permanganate bleaches erode while you're mixing them. Note that permanganate is every bit as dangerous as dichromate, so don't be afraid of it. Just take proper precautions, educate yourself on how to handle chemicals, and you'll be just fine.
     
  6. spatz

    spatz Member

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    i have been playing around with reversing pan-f using ilford bromophen and a permanganate/sodium bisulfate (pH decreaser from pool stores). i once tried reversing pan-f and upon re-exposure under an enlarger following the clearing bath the emulsion kind of slid off the base and floated nonchalantly in the tray of water i had the film in. johnielvis, is this a product of the unstable permanganate bleach i was using or that i was using a paper developer instead of a high-contrast film developer, which d-19 is?

    as for the OP, my junior experiments indicate that you can only go so far with the 'right' recipe for a given film - you simply have to experiment, experiment and experiment some more. as a starting point the guy in this thread from some time ago http://www.apug.org/forums/forum228/38437-b-w-slide-tried-true-process-4.html is getting some good results based on scans of his film.
     
  7. mr.datsun

    mr.datsun Subscriber

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    If you are thinking about a kit and decide to use the Foma, then probably the best thing to start with is Foma's own R100 reversal film. I've never used both together but I presume the kit and the film are made for each other. Otherwise you will need to experiment. For some people the experimental approach becomes a long journey with a delayed arrival. Others (apparently) hit it right very quickly. Steve Roberts (in johnielevis' thread link) has a process that successfully works with the film he used (FP4). That must be a good place to start if you do go the long way.

    Potassium Permanganate vs. Dichromate isn't much of an issue at this stage in your quest, imo. People have used both with success.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2013
  8. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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  9. davedm

    davedm Member

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    Chemical exposure with SnCl2 (Stannous Chloride / Tin(II) Chloride) is easy to do either with second developer or as a separate bath.See Jens Osbahr's pdf at: http://home.snafu.de/jens.osbahr/photography/reversal_processing/osbahr_reversal.pdf

    This takes care of emulsion peel off problems as well as repeatability issues of re-exposure but somehow most people tend to lean towards light exposure. Try it if you can get hands on SnCl2.
     
  10. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Having processed many rolls of Ektachrome using a fogging exposure I have never experienced any problems. No emulsion separation, no repeatability problems, no problems at all.

    For B&W slides the use of a a fogging developer such as sodium sulfide or thiocarbamide obviates the need for re-exposure. Slides made this way have a pleasant old-time sepia look.
     
  11. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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  12. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    It's the acid used in the bleach that causes the gelatin to denaturate. The permanganate doesn't counteract that while the dichromate does.
    Having said that, you have several options:
    1) use the permanganate at 18°C;
    2) use a glutaraldehyde hardener in the first developer and a permanganate bleach;
    3) use dichromate;

    For the fogging step: you can use a dithionite fogging redeveloper. I'm working on it. There's this household chem "Super Iron Out". I'm told it will work but as of today I still haven't found the right concentration. 15g/l seems too little, fog is uneven and it yields muddy gray instead of solid black.
    Stannous chloride must be used in an acidic buffer (acetic acid/acetate) otherwise it won't work.
     
  13. dr5chrome

    dr5chrome Member

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    B&W slide

    www.dr5.com



     
  14. dr5chrome

    dr5chrome Member

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    PLUS-X

    PLUS-x 35mm is a great film for B&W-sildes. http://www.dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/px.html

    FYI



     
  15. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    Whoa there--I didn't say it wouldn't work for slides, only that there are much much much better choices out there for my tastes.

    it does work for some things, but it's lacking in the contrast bang that people like me like--it looks flat and muddy to me because it has such a huge range--which you agree with apparently from the link
     
  16. cmacd123

    cmacd123 Subscriber

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    If you look carefully on teh Kodak Motion picture film site, there are the formulas for Plus-X _REVERSAL_ and Tri-X _REVERSAL_ which were and are respectively only sold in 16mm. Those formulas are what Movie labs use successfully to reverse ORWO UN54.

    http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uplo..._en_motion_support_processing_h2415_h2415.pdf

    The Kodak Movie formulas Don't work reliably with Foma R-100. The Kodak process is more environmentally friendly, and so less effective at bleaching.
     
  17. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    so plus x reversal is the same as plus x--I didn't know that.
     
  18. cmacd123

    cmacd123 Subscriber

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    NO it is (was) not. Plus X reversal , Plus x negative and Plus x still film are supposed to be all different, although obviously related.
     
  19. dr5chrome

    dr5chrome Member

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    ..sorry, not correct. These emulsions are the same.



     
  20. clayne

    clayne Member

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    I don't know about the reversal emulsion but the cine (5231) and still are pragmatically the same.