B&W reversal day. some FP4 and Xtreme 100

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by destroya, Apr 22, 2014.

  1. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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    on jury duty, so took the week off (lucky me!). luckily I didn't get called into court so had the day to myself. decided to shoot a few rolls and reversal process 'em for fun. I shot a roll of FP4 35mm and two rolls of Xtreme 100, one 35mm and one 120. developed all 3 at the same time. they seem very similar to me when comparing the fp4 and the x100. If I had to guess, I would say that harmon makes the film for ultrafine. The major difference is the lack of, or a very thin A H layer on the X100. look at the pict below, at the shutter button on the pentax 67 (you can really see it if you zoom in). also, when I process the film normally (as a neg) and do a pre-soak, the water comes out clear, unlike kodak, fuji, ilford and foma. so maybe that will give you smarter detective types a better idea of who makes the film or what emulsion it could be.

    scanning them (I know its taboo, but thought I would just throw this out there), I find that the both films give less grain when compared to a scanned neg of the same emulsion. Not sure why but it seems that way to my eyes.

    But the joy was projecting them. both 35mm slides showed great contrast, amazing detail and was a joy to look at. The 120 slide, which was cut down just a little to fit in a Gepe 6x6 mount, was awesome! after this, I'm gonna start shooting more B&W and rev process them as I had a great time seeing them projected. here are a few examples.....

    fp4 reversal 1 .jpg
    FP4


    fp4 reversal.jpg
    FP4

    x100 120 1 reversal.jpg
    Xtreme 100 120

    x100 120 reversal.jpg
    Xtreme 100 12

    x100 reversal.jpg
    Xtreme 100 35mm
     
  2. Roger Cole

    Roger Cole Member

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    What reversal process did you use?

    If E6 dies I'll be reversal processing some black and white just so I can continue to project slides.
     
  3. dasBlute

    dasBlute Subscriber

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    these have an unexpectedly [to me, at least] rich tonality. nice work,
    btw - I was the guy that asked about your process walking out of keeble :smile:
     
  4. Oxleyroad

    Oxleyroad Subscriber

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    You've done really well. My first attempt saw the emulsion separate from the substrate. I know how you felt after projecting your pictures. A good black and white 'slide' gets lots of oh and ahh's from the audience.
     
  5. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Fomapan R100 is a panchromatic film designed for reversal with a colorless base. It is available in 35mm 36 exp and longer rolls. Foma publishes their formulas for the reversal processing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2014
  6. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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    Well, I looked over a lot of posts on many different sites, read many PDF's from various film makers and then did many experiments, lots of trial and error, as well as asked manny people. I found that the 2 films I used above gave me the best results with the least fuss. Both can be done at same 1st developer solution and the X100 film is actually cheap. so my process is based largely on a post from a peter carter who gave his process for Orwo 54 on flickr. I'm using a patterson tank system and usually mix up 1 liter at a time .

    1) dektol used 1:2 to make a liter. mix a hypo solution that is 6.5 grams in 250 ml distilled water. add 6ml of the hypo mixture to the dektol. this really does foam up a lot durring agitation, so every once in a while I'll take the top off and let it foam up and the get some of it out. I do a steady constant agitation for 12 minutes to build contrast.

    2) do a water wash. 5, 15 and 25 inversions

    3) Bleach. as was mentioned above the first time I did it my emulsion washed off. so I halved the strength and lengthened the time and it has worked out great. Mix up the bleach in 2 parts, 500ml each. keep em seperate until time to use. I add them together at same time. it is not real stable but can be used up to 4 times once mixed if used within a few hours of being mixed together. Part A is 500 ml water with 3g of Potassium dichromate and part 2 is the acid, 500ml water with 12.5 grams Sodium Bisulphate. I got the Sodium Bisulphate at a pool supply company as pool acid. slow constant agitation for 10 minutes. Your leader (when complete) should be clear. if not, you have not bleached enough.

    4) water wash 5, 15 and 25 inversions

    5) Clear. 1 liter of water with 30 grams of Sodium Sulphite. agitate for 5 minutes. This can be saved and used up to 6 times. extend a little after the 2nd use, about 15%. . If you see black spots in light areas of your image, try increasing the clear time.

    6) water wash, 5 15 and 25 inversions

    7) Iron out step. I use a chemical reversal instead of a light exposure method. It also does the fix for me. just easier and for me, a little more idiot proof. use Iron out rust remover, which I got at Lowes. its primary ingredient is sodium hydrosulfite aka sodium dithionite. I use 1 teaspoon for every 200 ml of water in my tank. easy, yes, but it does smell funny. You must use distilled water as the Iron out will react to tap water! this is 1 shot, so use and dump.

    8) water wash 5, 15 and 25 inversions.

    9) photo flow for a minutes. DO NOT USE A SQUEEGEE! you run the risk of losing your image. just take out and hang to dry. I let em dry for an extra hour than usual to make sure the emulsion hardens nicely.

    **** when you are done you should mix the clear and the bleach together before dumping, to neutralize the bleach.*******


    this system has worked for me with repeatable results when using orwo 54, FP4, Xtreme 100 and 400. I tried a few other films but got real dark results. my guess is the dektol needs to be mixed a little stronger, like maybe 1:1. but I'm happy at this point with the 3 films so I use them and will keep it simple.
     
  7. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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    small world. nice to be able to put a face with a name!
     
  8. Hatchetman

    Hatchetman Subscriber

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    Very nice results! One of these days I'll give it a try.
     
  9. willrea

    willrea Member

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    I did some experiments a while back with FP4 and came up with some good results. Nice to see someone else getting some nice results too!
     
  10. Roger Cole

    Roger Cole Member

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    I wish B&W reversal chems were more commonly available pre-measured and ready to mix. Formulary has a kit, I believe. Anyone used it successfully?

    It says it's only for T-Max films. What happens if you use it with, say, FP4+, it explodes or something? :wink: Also, the description is awful and basically non-sensical:

    "The reversal process will produce excellent positives from one to two stops higher with the same development time; however negatives will be a thin positive. "

    WTF? "Negatives are a thin positive??" I get "results are a positive" is what they mean, but they are either thin or not, and "one to two stops higher" means what exactly? One to two stops higher film speed like TMX at 200 or 400 and TMY (-2?) at 800 or 1600?

    It's also fairly expensive at $28.75 plus shipping for enough for four rolls.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2014
  11. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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    just buy the raw chems. i think im in for $40 and thats enough, minus the distilled water and dektol, to do over 100 rolls. the main chem you use a lot of is the sodium sulphite, whoic is used in a lot of things. I just buy the 5 pound jug.
     
  12. Roger Cole

    Roger Cole Member

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    Hummm, what temperature for those times? 68F is almost impossible to get in my darkroom without trudging ice downstairs, for much of the year. And does the developer foam so much I couldn't use it in my Jobo?

    I have a big jug of sulphite. As you say, very useful stuff. :smile:

    It would be nice if a 400 film I would also use for other things would work properly, Tri-X by preference, HP5+ would be ok too. I had an experience with Ultrafine some time ago that had me swearing to never buy anything from them again. If it's made for them by Harman maybe Kentmere 400?
     
  13. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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    my last batch was done at 70, but its usually 68. I've also had good luck with the xtreme 400 fillm. very similar to hp5 but no AH layer. its a nice cheap film in 120 and only $30 for a bulk 100 foot roll. I've not tried tri-x with reversal as I save that film for other projects, usually diafine and 1250 iso stuff.
     
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  15. Tofek

    Tofek Member

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    Hello doestroya,
    I'm using Iron Out as 2nd developer but compared with Tetenal Dokumol or any other developer it gives a sepia/olive tone to the positives. Do you get this result too ? I lose also 1 stop with Iron out, but this is correctible.
    For example with Fomapan R, I get this (Iron Out on bottom, Dokumol 1+9 on top) :
    image.jpg
     
  16. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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    yes I do get the color change, but its more pronounce depending on the film. Iron out is nice because it does so many things in 1 easy simple step
     
  17. mrred

    mrred Subscriber

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    You are not actually loosing a stop per se. The iron out develops to completion and you probably were not going far enough before. Try 1st developing more.
     
  18. kb3lms

    kb3lms Subscriber

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    Neat! I will have to try this!

    Surely others may know more, but I believe the apparently finer grain is because reversal processing first develops the larger, faster, more sensitive grains as a negative and then bleaches them away. The slower, smaller grains are then fogged and developed as the positive image. So, the grain may actually be finer.
     
  19. mrred

    mrred Subscriber

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    That is also how it was explained to me.
     
  20. aRolleiBrujo

    aRolleiBrujo Member

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    bookmarked
     
  21. Henning Serger

    Henning Serger Member

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    Exactly, you are right with this explanation. That is the main reason transparencies have this bit finer grain appearence.
    If you choose the best imaging chain for looking at your transparencies = projection with an excellent projector / projection lens, you see it immediately:
    A projected slide on e.g. 1m x 1,5m screen, compared to a print from a negative of the same size side by side, looks significantly finer in grain with better detail rendition
    (in colour that is even more visible than in BW).

    I love doing wet prints on classic silver gelatin paper in my darkroom. I will never stop that.

    But slide projection, both BW and Colour, is absolutely unique in its quality for big enlargements and unsurpassed brillance.
    It is a wonderful addition to my printing.
    And I will never stop that, too.

    Film offers the best satisfaction if we use all that it can give us.
    "Either - or" thinking is limiting our delight.
    "Both and" , "as well as" thinking is maximizing our delight.

    Best regards,
    Henning
     
  22. FujiLove

    FujiLove Member

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    Picking up an old thread here, but hoping someone with a good knowledge of chemistry could advise:

    1) It's quite hard getting hold of Iron Out here in the UK, but I can source sodium dithionite. Any idea what amount I would need to replicate the 1 teaspoon per 200ml used for the reversal developer?

    2) Would sodium dithionite react with non-distilled water in the same way as the Iron Out? I'd like to avoid distilled water if possible as it's really expensive (probably as much again as all the chemicals!)
     
  23. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Yes sodium dithionite is the same as sodium hydrosulfite listed in Iron-Out. It is a powerful reducing agent and works as a fogging developer.

    You can remove temporary hardness (calcium) from water by boiling it for 3 - 4 minutes and allowing it to cool overnight. The calcium salts will precipitate out and the treated water decanted for use.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2016
  24. richyd

    richyd Member

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  25. FujiLove

    FujiLove Member

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    That's a great tip re the calcium. Thanks for clarifying.
     
  26. FujiLove

    FujiLove Member

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    Nice one - thanks. I found loads of online shops but they were all in the US with $25 delivery charges.