B&W without filters

Discussion in 'Exposure Discussion' started by Alex1994, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. Alex1994

    Alex1994 Member

    Messages:
    131
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Hi

    I am a B&W shooter, almost exclusively FP4+ which I soup in D-76 stock as per manufacturer's instructions. My main SLR is an OM which gets me by very nicely. I usually use a medium yellow (K2) filter for all my photos to get the contrast good. However, I also have a Minox 35 GSE which I want to use for B&W. Minox never made any colour filters for this camera, none are available bar the UV filter they made. My question is this: seeing as I won't be able to get a coloured B&W contrast filter on the Minox, what is there to be done about contrast? I usually scan my negs before printing (heresy I know) and a set of photos taken without the yellow filter looked distinctively worse than the ones with filter (lower contrast, more haze etc). Is the effect being exaggerated by scanning (never printed pics that had no filter) and if not can it be corrected for when printing using higher contrast grades? (for the record I'm using a colour enlarger) There must surely be a way of making them look good without filter, since plenty of people use Minoxes for B&W.

    Thanks in advance

    Alex
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2011
  2. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,004
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Filters on b/w film do not act directly on contrast. The change the way in which color relationships are rendered tonally.

    If you have the filter ring diameter, you can look around for tiny filters. Here is a link to KEH's small filters: http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Ac... - 45mm?s=1&bcode=FI&ccode=24&cc=79033&r=WG&f.

    I would consider looking into one of the smaller Kodak Series filter systems if you cannot seem to find screw ins.
     
  3. Alex1994

    Alex1994 Member

    Messages:
    131
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I was aware of how the filters worked. The Minox is a mess to get filters on, there is no filter thread, you can get one if you buy the Minox UV filter, in which case you want a 32mm thread. I had trouble finding a 49mm for the Olympus here in the UK so 32mm I imagine will be nigh on impossible...

    I would rather avoid a bulky filter system like the Kodak. The Minox is all about compactness and discreetness.
     
  4. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,004
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    In your OP, you displayed many times that you are not aware:

    Colored b/w filters do not affect overall contrast. They affect how specific colors are rendered as tonal values.

    Kodak series filter systems are nowhere near "bulky." They consist of two interlocking rings and a filter that is sandwiched between them.

    I don't know. You can figure something out if you really want that yellow filter. Cut a gel filter down and place it over the UV filter, for example.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2011
  5. mopar_guy

    mopar_guy Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,177
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Location:
    Washington,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Kodak Series V or Series VI

    Try looking for a Kodak Series V (sometimes Series 5) filter adapter. These adapters were made a long time ago and don't require threads on the front of the lens. They are designed to slide over the outside of a lens without threads. Simply measure the outside diameter of the lens and get an adapter of the corresponding size. Then you can use any Series filter with this adapter.
     
  6. Aja B

    Aja B Member

    Messages:
    132
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Why not hand-hold a yellow filter from your Olympus kit in front of the Minox lens? This is not uncommon. I've done this with an Olympus XA with great success.
     
  7. bobwysiwyg

    bobwysiwyg Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,623
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, M
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I did something similar with my XA only I used my clip-on, sunglass lens (orange tint) for some shots of cloud formations over the lake we stay at most summers. Worked just fine.
     
  8. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    You seem to be quite a stickler for verbal pedantry 2F/2F.

    Do you assume that because someone doesn't recite the textbook phrase to describe a photographic phenomenon that they are just hopeless idiots who have no understanding of photography?

    If you're imagining a blue sky and it's relationship to a grassy lawn; there is contrast between them. That is, there is a degree of difference; small or large. Adding a dark red filter will darken the tonal rendering of the blue sky, and thus the contrast between the sky and grass will change. Surely you can see how this affects contrast.

    Ok... looking forward to your rebuttal.

    edit: actually, after rereading the OP I kind of see what you're saying. nevermind!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2011
  9. R gould

    R gould Member

    Messages:
    430
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    Jersey Chann
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Alex I use classic cameras for all of my work, folders,tlr's etc, and it can bee very hard to get filters for all of them, so I have filters for some, and those that I cannot get the right size filters for I simply fit slightly oversize filters over the lens with blu tac, maybe it doesn't look that smart but it works, just make sure that you use a slightly over size filter to avoid vigniting, I also have a yellow cokin filter cut down to fit some lenses again with blu tac,Richard
     
  10. perkeleellinen

    perkeleellinen Member

    Messages:
    2,258
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Location:
    Warwickshire
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Perhaps the solution is a push-on filter.
     
  11. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,004
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I am not a stickler for verbal pedantry; I am a stickler for clear content that displays conceptual understanding of a topic, as it is in everyone's benefit. This is not about formality of language or absolute correctness in every statement. It is about clearing up errors in the understanding of the way the things behind the question being asked work. I'm "A Person" who wants to increase a use of language that displays and clearly communicates understanding of an issue, and does not display and propagate all-too-common misunderstandings about a topic. And when I attempt to contribute to someone's understanding of an issue in a brief and helpful way, and that person then states that they, in fact, have full understanding even when their language has repeatedly stated otherwise, I feel that a slightly more detailed assertion of my point is called for before moving on.

    The simple point I made was that these are not blanket contrast filters. It is easy (and common) to think of them this way, but not correct; doing so will not help one to achieve ones desired results.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2011
  12. Vaughn

    Vaughn Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,306
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2006
    Location:
    Humboldt Co.
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    And where there are yellow objects that are slightly darker than blue objects, a yellow filter could actually reduce contrast.

    Occasionally I get students who complain that their red filter did not darken the sky on an typical Humboldt overcast gray day.
     
  13. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

    Messages:
    15,205
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hi Alex,

    Have you ever thought of using a hood in lieu of a filter? It does rather well to bring maximum contrast to your exposures, although it doesn't alter the color contrast like you do with your yellow filter, obviously.

    It may sound crude and unexciting, but when I have a camera that I don't have specific filters for, I just use a filter larger than the lens thread in front of the lens and take the picture. It's hardly elegant, but it works.

    - Thomas

     
  14. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Fair enough. And to be honest, I spoke too soon when writing that reply. We had our discussion yesterday and so I saw that and started typing immediately without really rereading the OP. And once I posted it, I didn't want to delete it for reasons of online-fairness.

    I thought that initially you were saying that the darkening of a blue sky, for instance, wasn't effecting contrast but tonal relationships, and that seemed like splitting hairs. But I see now that the OP did communicate a misunderstanding with regards to overall contrast and printing grades, etc.

    I really must start "thinking before typing".... I had a similar problem in grade-school with speaking....

    :sideways:
     
  15. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

    Messages:
    20,591
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Location:
    Southern California
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    "Engage brain before putting mouth into gear"?
     
  16. smcclarin

    smcclarin Member

    Messages:
    40
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Location:
    Salt Lake Ci
    Shooter:
    Med. Format Pan
    Use as Step up Ring to what ever filter diameter you have. I have used a step up for my Nikon P5100 wide kit lens about 52mm to use 77mm filters, while my mamiya RB takes 77mm filters as stock. At full wide there is no Vignette caused by the step up ring or the 77mm filter when mounted. The front lens looks a bit ridiculous but it works!
     
  17. perkeleellinen

    perkeleellinen Member

    Messages:
    2,258
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Location:
    Warwickshire
    Shooter:
    35mm
  18. Alex1994

    Alex1994 Member

    Messages:
    131
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thanks hugely for the link perkeleellinen, I went off and bought it. Some delving saw that these push-on filters can be used on Minox 35s

    And I am also grateful to so-called pedants like 2F/2F who quite rightly drummed into me the difference between contrast and the way specific colours are rendered as tonal values.
     
  19. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    ... and I just feel like a big boob now... (not the good kind)

    :redface: