Bergger VCCB Paper

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by David Hall, Apr 18, 2003.

  1. David Hall

    David Hall Member

    Messages:
    470
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Location:
    South Pasade
    I have to admit something.

    For a minute there, a year or two back, I thought seriously against starting another chemical darkroom because it appeared that I do about as well with Photoshop and Mac and Epson as I could with Ilford and Dektol.

    Turns out that was more about me than technology. The prints I have been making lately, from Azo to some Bergger I just tried for the first time tonight, blow away anything I did on the computer. So I am publicly taking back my private statement about printing.

    And that Bergger. Yikes, that's good stuff. A little too green if you don't get the tones right, but it is deep and rich where it needs to be and creamy where it needs to be. Perfect for portraits, although maybe it's too warm for other things.

    For anyone who uses it, how does it tone? I just dried prints but have not yet toned them. What dilution and time has what effect?

    dgh
     
  2. Aggie

    Aggie Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Location:
    So. Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    ..
     
  3. jmcd

    jmcd Member

    Messages:
    715
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    I posted some of this on another thread, but I think it goes here, too. I also find Bergger to be truly lovely. I used the neutral based, VC glossy paper. Developed in glycin or Neutol Plus, it is blue black. In warm tone developer, like Agfa Neutol WA, I think it really glows, neutral with slight warmth, just right to me. It seems highly responsive to different developers, and will likely take on a distinct personality in each. I don't like to tone it, I like it just out of the developer. If you do tone it, expect dramatic changes to occur, possibly ones you will like. It is quite sharp, and fine distinctions in micro contrast are apparent.

    My first reaction to this print is not how the tone holds up or how sharp it is, but how lovely it is.

    I am curious to try the graded version.
     
  4. jmcd

    jmcd Member

    Messages:
    715
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    What I print on a grade 3 on Ilford Multigrade or Kodak Polycontrast I print on a grade 2 Berrger VC. The speed is similar.
     
  5. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

    Messages:
    3,219
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    I, too, recently made my first prints on Bergger VC. I took along a packet of Ilford Multigrade and printed some of the same negatives on both papers for comparison. There was none. The Ilford paper was a complete waste of money. I must agree with whoever said it above that this paper is just lovely. Developed in Dektol it rates second only to Azo in amidol with me.

    Has anyone tried the Bergger Silver Supreme? I'm especially curious about how it might look developed in amidol.
     
  6. Tom Duffy

    Tom Duffy Member

    Messages:
    963
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Well, I'm glad I'm not going crazy. I've been using and plugging Bergger VCCB for quite a while. I've been using it since it first came out and there is no comparison to any other VC paper I compare it with. The tones, local contrast are in a league of its own. I find it to be a stop or two slower than the others, making my print times with a pyro neg longer than I would like.

    I develop in Zone VI paper developer from Calumet mixed 1:3 or 1:2 depending on the neg. The zone VI is a lot like dektol (but not identical) and it disolves in water easily.

    I've toned in selenium and both kodak sepia toners. I've also toned in selenium followed by sepia. this gives an intense reddish brown tone.

    I like the VCCB best untoned though. I've bought but haven't used Sistan yet, to be more archival. anyone have any sistan advice/experience?
     
  7. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

    Messages:
    4,518
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Location:
    Ipswich, Mas
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Tom Duffy @ Apr 18 2003, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I like the VCCB best untoned though. I've bought but haven't used Sistan yet, to be more archival. anyone have any sistan advice/experience? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    I've used Sitan extensively. Its purpose is longevity ... It is not supposed to change the appearance of the print, and from my experience, it doesn't.
     
  8. David Hall

    David Hall Member

    Messages:
    470
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Location:
    South Pasade
    Tom,

    I have seen the Zone VI at Calumet, but never used it. How does it differ from Dektol?

    dgh
     
  9. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    According to another list I read, Picker said Zone VI developer was Dektol. I was not there so I can't be sure but that is the story.


    lee/c
     
  10. Tom Duffy

    Tom Duffy Member

    Messages:
    963
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Lee,
    Zone VI developer is packaged in two parts, dektol in one. (could be same components). zone vi mixes much easier than dektol and lasts much longer in a bottle without oxidation. when I developed AZO in zone vi, I don't get the common blue tone people talk about. zone vi's working solution (1:3) is more dilute than dektol (1:1). I saw the other post too. zone vi may be dektol, but you couldn't prove it by me.

    David,
    zone vi yields results like dektol with none of the mixing/storage problems I've always had with dektol. more economical to use, too.

    Ed,
    thanks for the reply. Bergger VCCB looks so good untoned and I thought sistan might fill the bill. thanks for confirming this.
     
  11. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Thanks Tom,
    I dilute Dektol all over the place. (1:1, 1:2, 1:3 and 1:4) It really depends on the contrast of the neg. Here in the last several years I get a friend to make up a print developer that is very much akin to Defender 55. I like it a lot. If you don't get the blue then I would agree that the two (z6 and Dektol) are not the same. That is what you get when you repete the rumors. I use Dektol because it is easy to get and I don't have to think about it. Here in the fly-over area of the US, most of the stuff has to be mailed in if you want anything exotic. I don't regard z6 developer as exotic but the fellow that owns the camera shop does. Sodium Sulfite is about all I can buy off the shelves. Hear that Coolpix 6? That ought to get me a ration of shit when I next go in there. But there is probably not 5 people here in the MetroMess that would mix their own chemistry. But I am rambling. Thanks for the info.

    lee\c
     
  12. Robert

    Robert Member

    Messages:
    747
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lee @ Apr 19 2003, 01:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> But there is probably not 5 people here in the MetroMess that would mix their own chemistry. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Maybe not but I bet a lot of other people use the exact same chemicals for things other then photographic uses. You just need to figure it out. All the photographic labelling does is increase the price they can charge the customers.
     
  13. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

    Messages:
    6,242
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    As I recall, Picker said that Zone VI developer was like Dektol but that it didn't "dump" the low values in the way that Dektol did. I have to believe that there was a proprietary formula involved. I posted several months ago asking for information on the formulation but came up with nadda. I like the Zone VI developer for conventional enlarging, as well. If I were to try to come up with a formulation, I believe that I would check the Darkroom Cookbook. Perhaps Ed Buffaloe would have some knowledge of the formulation.

    Lacking that perhaps we could invite Fred to a seance. Heck he wouldn't mind letting us in on his secret now...
     
  14. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

    Messages:
    6,242
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    As I recall, Picker said that Zone VI developer was like Dektol but that it didn't "dump" the low values in the way that Dektol did. I have to believe that there was a proprietary formula involved. I posted several months ago asking for information on the formulation but came up with nadda. I like the Zone VI developer for conventional enlarging, as well. If I were to try to come up with a formulation, I believe that I would check the Darkroom Cookbook. Perhaps Ed Buffaloe would have some knowledge of the formulation.

    Lacking that perhaps we could invite Fred to a seance. Heck he wouldn't mind letting us in on his secret now...