best method of processing fibre base paper

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by spoolman, Sep 15, 2008.

  1. spoolman

    spoolman Subscriber

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    Hello All:I'll be processing about 50 sheets of B&W fibre base paper next week and I have two questions. 1). Which method ,of the various ones out there,is the best to use in terms of fixing and print protection as far as archival keeping is concerned and 2). Is the method of processing and archival print protection dependent on which make of paper I use?.

    Thanks in advance,

    Doug:smile:
     
  2. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    The techniques you use to process fibre based paper are not Brand dependent, but rather "weight" dependent. You fix and wash single weight paper for a longer period of time than double-weight paper.

    For common double-weight fibre paper (Ilford, Foma, Efke, Kentmere, etc.) After developing and stop bath, fix for 3 to 5 minutes each in 2 fixing baths, one right after the other, then treat in a washing aid such as Kodak Hypo clear (follow instructions on box) and wash for proscribed time. This is my routine. Yours may vary. It is common practice to discard first fixing bath after "so many" prints and move 2nd fixing bath up to 1st position and make fresh 2nd fixing bath. You may use a water holding bath after 2nd fixing bath, and treat all prints together for hypo clear and washing. For true archival processing, you need to test your prints for hypo residue with a test solution, available from common vendors, to ensure your wash is adequate.
     
  3. eddie

    eddie Subscriber

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    You'll need to do a first wash before the Hypo Clear (5-10 minutes). After the Hypo Clear another, final, wash of 10-15 minutes is needed.
    For archival purposes, toning in a dilute Selenium Toner is recommended.
     
  4. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    I believe that Ilford has done some extensive testing in so far as what is needed to insure "permanence" of both prints and negatives. They have published their recommendations, perhaps on the Ilford site. I am sorry not to be able to provide a direct link for you, but a simple google search should be able to lead you to the most recent Ilford data.

    Ed
     
  5. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    OK...here you go...from the Ilford-Harman site for their graded FB paper.

    Optimum permanence sequence
    Fixation ILFORD RAPID FIXER (1+4) 1min
    or
    HYPAM (1+4) 1min
    intermittent agitation
    First wash Fresh, running water 5min
    Washing aid ILFORD WASHAID (1+4) 10min
    intermittent agitation
    Final wash Fresh, running water 5min
    Optimum permanence sequence
    with selenium toner
    Fixation ILFORD RAPID FIXER (1+4) 1min
    or
    HYPAM (1+4) 1min
    intermittent agitation
    Toning Selenium toner diluted with *min
    working strength ILFORD
    WASHAID instead of water,
    intermittent agitation
    Rinse ILFORD WASHAID (1+4), 10min
    intermittent agitation
    Final wash Fresh, running water 30min
    * Tone the print for the appropriate time to achieve
     
  6. Peter Schrager

    Peter Schrager Subscriber

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    if you check michael and paula's site they have the workflow down pat..it is the one I use and it works beautifully
    Best, Peter
     
  7. Colin Corneau

    Colin Corneau Subscriber

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    URL/address for that site..? Thank you, Peter.
     
  8. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    That is not the whole story. First, that method has very
    limited application. It is best used if one has A print and
    needs it in a hurry. I can't imagine any one using the
    that method save for that purpose.

    Second, the capacity of that one liter one fixer is 10 8x10s.
    That is way down from the 40 8x10s possible using the
    two bath method. Ilford does recommend the two
    bath method. Dan
     
  9. spoolman

    spoolman Subscriber

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    Hello:Thanks all for responding.If someone could give me the web address for michael and paula it would help a lot.I just read an archival processing method in the Darkroom Cookbook which used Berg Bath after the Selenium toning to remove excess toner and a final treatment after washing with Agfa Sistan of which I have 6 bottles I recently purchased.Any thoughts on this method?.

    Thanks again,

    Doug:wink:
     
  10. Peter Schrager

    Peter Schrager Subscriber

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    address

    just google azo forum for the above persons and it will appear....it is under the writings section....
    fix the prints twice at 4 minutes per
    selenium tone/I use 3 ounces per gallon for graded paper/azo for about 3 minutes
    wash prints for 30 minutes
    run through hca bath for 5 minutes
    final wash is one hour

    Best, Peter
     
  11. spoolman

    spoolman Subscriber

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    Hello Peter:Thanks for your info and where I can find michael and Paula.Wouldn't washing the paper for one hour weaken the paper fibres?.

    Thanks,

    Doug:wink:
     
  12. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    At one time selenium toning was associated with
    greater LE, Life Expectancy. Why it is not now is
    a mystery to me. The little sulfur present years
    ago should be an easy addition to our present
    day ultra pure selenium toners. Dan
     
  13. Kevin Kehler

    Kevin Kehler Member

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    Sorry to inject another question but I was recently given a bottle of Kodak's Rapid Selinium toner, which looks like it was opened but almost none used and the bottle is at least 2-3 years old. Can this still be used or should it be thrown away?
     
  14. snallan

    snallan Member

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    Selenium toner stock pretty much lasts indefinitely, so it should be OK.

    On the subject of toning for archival protection, the old advice to use a diute toner, so that there is little or no colour change has been discredited. As selenium toner starts toning in the shadows, and works its way up to the highlights, brief toning in dilute toner does not protect the highlights.

    To get protection requires full toning in a stronger solution, which will give colour change in susceptible papers. If colour change is not required, cool or neutral tone papers give less reaction.

    For further info, check out the chapter on archival processing in Tim Rudman's book on toning.
     
  15. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    I've real doubts. So, silver in some areas of the print are
    immune to the presence of the selenium atom. And what
    could be the reason for that?

    I prefer to believe that the highlight silver IS 'toned'
    along with the rest of the print's silver. Due to the very
    fine character of that highlight silver the 'toning' is less
    noticeable. Dan
     
  16. Peter Schrager

    Peter Schrager Subscriber

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    toning

    it is fairly obvious that "new" papers tone quite less than the plder ones used to...I do not have an answer for that but that is how it seems to me...azo type papers do not experience a shift as far as my eye can tell...I just tone for permanence anyway...
    Best, Peter
     
  17. snallan

    snallan Member

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    This is fairly easy to test. Take a few prints, and selenium tone for a variety of times, then bleach with a standard Ferri/Br bleach.

    Here are a couple of examples I have just tried. These are using two test prints from a previous session, photographed with one of those computerised imagey things with a lens on the front.

    I tend to use a moderately strong toner, and in this case it was selenium stock (Fotospeed), diluted 1+9. Bleach was 2.5% ferri (10% stock, diluted 1+3), with approx 8g of potassium bromide added to 800ml of working solution. The prints were made on Ilford MGIV RC, developed in Beer's #5.

    The first image is the untoned print; the second is the straight toned print (in this case 3 minutes in the toner described); the third was toned for one minute, then bleached for ten minutes; and the fourth was toned for three minutes, and bleached for ten minutes.

    As you can see, the one minute toned print has lost pretty much all of the highlight detail, and a lot of the shadow silver has been removed as well. With selenium toning for three minutes, the shadows and the midtones are holding up much better, but the highlights have still gone. I think given five to six minutes in this concentration of selenium toner, even the highlights would be immune to the bleaching.

    So, whatever the mechanism underlying the action of selenium toner, the highlights definitely appear to tone last.

    (Apologies for some of the wierd reflections on some of the shots! :sad: )
     

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  18. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Or bleach first? I think yours may be a special case
    of a general. The general be the susceptible nature
    of very fine particles, even colloidal. Highlight areas
    are little visible at start. They can be lost
    in the fixer. Dan
     
  19. snallan

    snallan Member

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    Maybe so. Tim would be the guy to ask, he could probably point you at the appropriate literature about selenium and archival toning.

    Though if the finest particles were first to react with the selenium to form the selenide, then I think the highlights would remain when attacked with the ferri bleach. I don't think ferri is sufficiently agressive to attack the selenide. Peroxides, or dichromate bleaches, yes, but not the ferri.

    In the discussion in his book on toning, Tim mentions that studies show that the larger grains of silver in the shadows are not converted to the selenide, and that shadow toning starts with the smaller grains of silver. That would suggest that the highlights should be toned first. The fact that it is reported that they are toned more slowly than the shadows, and midtones, suggests that the actual mechanism of selenium toning is far more complex than a straight forward fluid phase chemical reaction.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2008
  20. jeroldharter

    jeroldharter Member

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    You don't sound experienced with fiber based paper processing. Doing 50 prints in one weekend is quite a bit. Are you doing 50 copies of the same print, or 50 individual prints? If it is the latter, you are very productive.

    If it is 50 prints of the same subject, my advice is:

    Find the printing sequence with dodges and burns to generate your desired final print. Make notes.

    Then expose each sheet, one after another, and store the exposed paper in a paper safe.

    Then use single tray processing (several threads on that in APUG) and batch process 8 prints at a time, interleaving them in the tray full of solution. Rinse after wash, and after fix, after toning.

    Wash for the appropriate time.

    You will need a lot of space to dry 50 prints. I place the wet prints back to back and clip them to a clothesline to dry. I don't pat dry or squeegee them.
    You could easily do 6 batches of 8 (and one with 9) and finish in a day.

    That is a lot of throughput so I would change out the chemistry to avoid exhaustion. For all that work, it is not worth skimping on $1 worth of fixer.
     
  21. spoolman

    spoolman Subscriber

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    Hello:Thanks to all for their input on this subject.I will be making 50 prints of one negative.I will be replacing the developer after every 10 to 15 prints just to keep consistency for the whole job.I will be exposing 2 prints along with the rest to use as tests to judge when toning for archival permanence.Thanks to Jerold for that advice.

    Doug:wink: