Beutler - Why two stock solutions?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by JPD, Jun 6, 2009.

  1. JPD

    JPD Member

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    The Beutler formula contains only metol, sulphite and carbonate. Why do we have to mix two stock solutions? Many formulas contain the same chemicals, but makes one stock solution only. Does the Beutler keep better in two solutions? Could one make a one solution Beutler if one uses it within a few days?
     
  2. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Most developers keep better in an acidic to slightly alkaline solution, so also Metol. When the carbonate is added the oxidation really speeds up. A low-sulphite developer like Beutler's would die within hours if mixed as a single stock solution.

    A way to get around the two-stock "problem" is to make only one, the Metol/sulfite one. When you're getting ready to use it, dissolve the corresponding amount of carbonate in the water first, then add the stock solution directly to that immediately before use.

    That's what I do, and it works. Or should I say - it has worked so far.
     
  3. JPD

    JPD Member

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    Thanks for the explanation and the suggestion.

    I may be experimenting with this developer this summer.
     
  4. RobertV

    RobertV Member

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    Metol and Sulfite is rather stable and also Sodium Carbonate in demi-water can be kept for a long time.

    Beutler (A+B) is a very interesting developer. High definition and high acutance with box speed and only 3 components.

    I like it very much with the Efke 25 and Acros 100.

    Here an example from the 35mm negative. I made an enlargement of 40x50cm and you can count the stones.

    Best regards,

    Robert

    [​IMG]

    Efke 25 in Beutler 1+1+10 7:00 Min. at 20 degrees C.
     
  5. JPD

    JPD Member

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    Yes Robert, I'm thinking about trying it with Efke 25 & 50 135- and maybe 120-films. The 7 minutes is a bit too short for use with the CombiPlan tank and sheet film, I think. But I could of course put the film in the already filled tank.
     
  6. RobertV

    RobertV Member

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    I am using 35mm and 120 rolfilm only. Jobo 1510 and 1520 tanks.
    You do not need much agitation with Beutler.

    I make the Beutler A+B with washing Soda.
    Solution A:
    1g Metol
    5g Sodiumsulfite (sicc.)

    Solution B:
    5g Sodiumcarbonate (sicc.) or
    14,6g Soda (10.H2O Sodiumcabonate)

    Both A+B: fill up with 100ml demi-water

    It's really easy to make. And all components are cheap. Each film is about €0,05 for the Beutler developer so neglectible to all other costs.

    Acros 100 is also very good: 1+1+10 for 7:00 minutes at 20 degrees C. Instead of iso 64 with Rodinal 1+50 you have full iso rate of 100.
     
  7. Trask

    Trask Subscriber

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    Robert, just so I follow correctly, you're dissolving each set of chemicals in 100 ml water, so when you're done you have two bottles with one having 100 ml of A and the other with 100 ml of B. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the term "demi-water" -- do you mean distilled water?
     
  8. JPD

    JPD Member

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    Demi-water should be demineralized water.

    1+1+10 makes 12 parts. That would be 83 ml part A, 83 ml part B and water up to 1000 ml, for one liter working solution.
     
  9. RobertV

    RobertV Member

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    Demi water is deminiralized water but you can also use destilled water or R.O. (Reverse Osmose) water or even boiled - filtered water because the application of Beutler is not really critical.

    You fill up each stock to 100ml with above mentioned water.

    For the dilution 1+1+8:
    for a 35mm tank with a 250ml volume: 25+25+ fill up till 250ml with regular tap water.
    or: 50+50 fill up till 500ml for the roll film.

    As already said great results with the Efke films. This Willi Beutler formulae fits in the 50's with the Dr Schleussner/Adox single layer films very well.
     
  10. JPD

    JPD Member

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    It's like with Rodinal. 1+25 and 1+50 solutions are seldom really thought of as 26 and 51 parts mixed together. :D
     
  11. julio1fer

    julio1fer Member

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    Beutler is my main developer for FP4+. It works even better with Pan F+.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I am in awe of the introduction of new terms. Demiwater. Hmmmm. RO. I use that myself.

    The reason is that this is why formulas from 100 years ago or so are so hard to decipher. They read almost in code and are hard to translate. Use of Be (Baume) is common for measuring the concentration of acids and bases, and there are few accurate translation tables existing today. So, please be careful what you use. :D

    PE
     
  13. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Ilford generally use I+4, 1+9, 1+19 etc which translate as 1:5, :10, 1:20, ie 1 part made up to the larger number, that's how every one I know uses Rodinal.

    Ron (PE) the term is usually Demin in the English speaking world :D

    Ian
     
  14. steven_e007

    steven_e007 Member

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    I've seen a 'modified' Beutler formula in Barry Thornton's book 'Elements'. It is the basic Beutler mix but with the carbonate halved and a few millilitres of Potassium Iodide 0.001% solution added. This is borrowed from Crawley's FX1, I think?

    Thing is, the ingredients here are just given as a long list.

    Would it still be best to make up two solutions and if so, which one should the Iodide go in? - or at such a low concentration, doesn't it matter?
     
  15. RobertV

    RobertV Member

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    It doesn't matter. KI improved for a few films the acutance but what I have seen in practice it's a very small improvement for only a very few slow speed films.
    Making a concentrate of 0,001% Potassium Ioded is also not very practically.
     
  16. steven_e007

    steven_e007 Member

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    Actually, I have made the Iodide solution before when I've tried FX1. It really isn't difficult, it is just that after you've used your 3ml - it's deciding what to do with the other 9.997 litres :D

    But yes, I found FX1 a bit of a let down. Also FX2 - which is the one with the tiny amount of yellow dye in it? Can't remember all the details now, it was a few years ago that I tried them out, but I do remember that I felt neither were worth the effort with FP4+, which seemed just as sharp in Ilfosol S straight off the shelf...

    As I said in another thread, FP4+ is already a high acutance film, I think maybe something not noted for its edge effect, such as T-Max 100, might show more difference?
     
  17. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Pinacryptol yellow :D

    Like you I tried FX-1 & 2 back in the 70's with FP4 and wasn't impressed with either developer, but I think they were supposed to work best with Pan F. I still have the KI solution :smile:

    Ian
     
  18. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Essentially FX-1 and Beutler's are carbonated metol sulfite
    developers. I've used a 1-3-3 ratio, metol-sulfite-carbonate
    on film. Good for prints also. For prints that ratio is known
    as Ansco 120 or Beer's A. For film those developers
    are used very dilute.

    For film the actual amount of chemistry used was 0.3-0.9-0.9
    grams metol-sulfite-carbonate. Solution volume 500ml. Dan