BW processing with warm water

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by MFstooges, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. MFstooges

    MFstooges Member

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    Anybody has data for developing with warm water? This summer my water temp is 30C and I prefer not to ask my fridge for a help. I tried 5 minutes developing 120 size Ilford FP125 with HC110 and the result is pitch black. I did however accidentally exposed the roll cause I didn't realize that I loaded the tank. But at least there must be some image on it unless I did incorrect timing with development process, right?
     
  2. wildbill

    wildbill Member

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    ilford has a time chart available on their website.
     
  3. brofkand

    brofkand Member

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    Ilford has a time/temp compensation chart on their website as wildbill mentioned, and the Massive Dev Chart app (if you have an iPhone or Android phone) will do the compensation for you.

    I generally have to process around 75F in the summer in my climate, sometimes I have to push it to 80F. I love the mid fall/spring time when the water is 68F right out of the spigot.

    You may have problems getting HC110 up to those temperatures without very short development times. General consensus is anything less than 5 minutes is too short. You may have to do a greater dilution like the unofficial Dilution H (see here: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/) to get workable processing times.
     
  4. Alan W

    Alan W Subscriber

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    There won't be any images on the film if you exposed it before development-doesn't matter how it was developed.
     
  5. brofkand

    brofkand Member

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    +1, and it takes a lot less to totally black out a film than you'd think. I opened my tank and closed it right back (it was open for a split second) in relatively dim room light and it was totally fogged. This was 400 speed film.

    Fortunately, it's a mistake one tends to make very few times in their lives. So far, once was enough for me.
     
  6. Worker 11811

    Worker 11811 Member

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    Why not temper your developer in a container of ice water?

    Just put some ice and water in a container then place your beaker of developer in the ice water and stir until the temperature is down to where you want it.

    Yes, you can develop film at higher temperatures. Sometimes, when circumstances require, you might have to but, if at all possible, I think it's best to develop as near to the recommended temperatures as possible. As I remember, most companies recommend that developing times be greater than four or five minutes in order to prevent uneven development. The higher the temperature, the faster the film develops. At 30º C, you might be bumping up against than limit.
     
  7. MFstooges

    MFstooges Member

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    Like I said, I prefer not to ask my fridge for help, that means no ice. But the second trial at 5 min still came out dark/over. I might have to dilute more or forced to use ice.
     
  8. brofkand

    brofkand Member

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    86F/30C is a little too hot for my liking. Either use Dilution H and double the time of Dilution B or set the water you need out for a few hours to come to room temperature/use the fridge. Make sure all of your chemicals are at the same temperature, that means use the Ilford method of washing so you can use the same temperature water.

    You should be able to process a few rolls with a gallon of water, maybe less.
     
  9. David Brown

    David Brown Member

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    Why? Is this a religious conviction?

    My tap water is about the same temperature as yours (here in Texas). However, you're in luck, since you use a liquid developer, you can mix it at any temp you want. Put a bottle of water in the fridge. Just do it. Tomorrow, you can mix tap water and the cold water from the fridge and get any temp you wish. Half 30 degrees and half 10 degrees will get you (Ta Da) 20 degrees!

    http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm

    Do this for all your chems and wash water. Use the so-called Ilford washing method. http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/58480-ilford-wash-method.html

    Then combine this with NOT exposing the film to light and you should get usable negatives.

    Cheers

    EDIT: Brofkand posted essentially the same advice while I was composing mine. There ya are ...
     
  10. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    There is a problem with developers that contain more than one developig agent. Each developing agent reacts differently toward temperature changes. For example hydroquinone effectively becomes inert below 55oF. So for consistant results one needs to stay within the usual temperature range 68oF to 75oF .
     
  11. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    try using a developer that has glycin in it.
    or one made of coffee, vit c, and washing soda
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2012
  12. Arctic amateur

    Arctic amateur Member

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    I've gotten faint images on the leader of a film once. I loaded the camera in relatively dim light, and there was a faint but visible image amongst the black fog in the zeroth frame (partly on the fogged leader). The film was Rollei Retro 80S. I was quite surprised when I saw it.
     
  13. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

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    It's relatively easy to control water temperature, fridge, ice, so I don't understand the problem. Develop at 68f/20C or nearest you can get.
     
  14. Maris

    Maris Member

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    Don't be afraid to use temperatures well above 20 Celcius if you gain an advantage.

    A few weeks ago I finished a darkroom session of 38 sheets of Fomapan400 in the 4x5 format. To speed things up my Xtol developer (replenished stock) was heated to 35 Celcius (95 Farenheit) to give a time of 3minutes 25 seconds per negative. I used a small developing tray floating in a bigger tray of hot water. All the negatives are fine. If I had stuck to 20 Celcius my developing time would have been 10 minutes 20 seconds and I would not have finished the job until the next day. And I would have been bored out of my skull. Standing in the dark for two days rocking a tray is not a creative moment in photography.

    Modern black and white films can take developer temperatures up to 100 Farenheit (sometimes beyond) without harm BUT:
    Agitation must be smooth, quick, and continuous to avoid uneven development because of the short times.
    Temperatures and times have to be accurate because the margin of error gets small.
    All processing solutions should have similar temperatures to avoid thermal shock to the film and the possibility of reticulation.
    Film emulsion softens so the only things allowed to touch it are liquids and air; no fingers, no squeegees, no chamois.
     
  15. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    not sure about that
    i have processed film in a rotary processor
    all tmy and it was 80F
    and all the emulsion went off the backing and down the drain ... 6 rolls
     
  16. Dan Henderson

    Dan Henderson Member

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    One thing I miss about Michigan is consistent water temperature. My water there came out of Lake Michigan and was transported to me in mains at least five feet below ground, so cold tap water was never more than about 20c, right where we want it. Here in Virginia I'm on a small community system with the mains not so deeply buried, and I haven't seen "cold" water less than 23c since summer started.
     
  17. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    75 F/ 24C is one of the recommend temperatures in many of the manufacturers' data sheets I read - e.g. for T-Max developer. I would use that as my target temperature, and use ice and other sources of cooling for that.
     
  18. Mainecoonmaniac

    Mainecoonmaniac Subscriber

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    You can process your film in chemistry above 20° C, but you'll probably have more grain and the emulsion is going to be softer and easier to scratch when you hang it up to dry. Keep the chemicals and wash at the same temperature. You can cause reticulation if you go from warm chemistry into a cold wash.
     
  19. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Subscriber

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    When I lived in Miami, the tap water was 86°F (30°C). I like to process at 68°F (20°C), so I would mix my developer and then put the entire measuring beaker in the fridge for a while, sometimes in the freezer for 5 minutes for a quick chill. I would check on it after a few minutes and stir it to even out the temperature. When it would get to the temp. I liked, I would take it out and use it. Never had a problem and never needed to use the ice maker.
     
  20. Argenticien

    Argenticien Member

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    I'm not sure I understand the OP's reluctance to use the refrigerator or freezer, unless he's got an old or malfunctioning one that cannot re-cool very quickly every time the door is opened, or similar. Barring that, I'd echo the concerns above about short developing times and say it's worth cooling the water to avoid that. Things like the 15 seconds it takes to pour the developer out of the tank are noise in a 10- or 12-minute development process, but material to the outcome of a 3-minute one.

    Here in North Carolina, my water is often about 26 C this summer. I usually fill a large pitcher with it, mix in ice to reach 20 C or even 18 C, and use that pitcher of water for everything (mixing developer, as stop, and for washing). The ice-maker in my freezer usually makes more ice than I would use up in drinks, so old ice collects in there and gets an off taste to it over time. Those are the cubes that go into this process! Meantime I'm reserving the freshest, best tasting ice to go into iced coffee or mint juleps. :D

    --Dave
     
  21. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    I can't get to my refernces right now, so this comment will be somewhat incomplete. Sodium sulfate is usually added to developers used at high temperatures to even out the penetration into the emulsion. Even so, development times remain uncomfortably short with many developers. Diluting the developer will increase the developing time, but it also decreases the contrast. Some tropical developers, such as Agfa 16 and 64, Gevaert G.222a and G.223, and Kodak D-13 and DK-15, are around, but most have become obsolete. I have used D-76 at up to 27C without undue problems, but above that is unknown territory. Here is the formula for G.222a. It is an example of the use of sulfate to get good high temperature performance.

    Gevaert G.222a Tropical film developer

    Water (125F/52C) 750 ml
    Metol 2 g
    Sodium sulfite (anh) 50 g
    Hydroquinone 5 g
    Sodium sulfate (anh) 45 g
    Sodium carbonate (anh) 30 g
    Potassium bromide 1.5 g
    Cold water to make 1 l

    Mixing instructions: Add chemicals in specified sequence.
    Dilution: Use undiluted
    Starting point development time: 2 mins. (86F/30C)

    Ref: Digitaltruth.com