Can I wash fibre prints the next day?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by PVia, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. PVia

    PVia Member

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    Hi all...

    Sometimes when I print late at night, I do a first fix and then into a holding tank. I usually give the prints a 5-10 minute wash while shuffling and dumping the water several times and then dry.

    My intention is to rewet, second fix, hypoclear and archival wash the next day, however I haven't done this yet and was wondering if this workflow was considered unwise.

    If not, how many days can go by before I proceed with part two of the above?
     
  2. Lowell Huff

    Lowell Huff Inactive

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    You can wash the next day going straight into a wash bath. No need to fix and wet again.
     
  3. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council Council

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    The longer you wait the worse the idea, but you can certainly leave your prints in the holding water overnight with no problems. If you leave them wet too long, the emulsion will lift off the paper and turn into a gray sludge coating the inside of your wash tank/tray. BAD idea.
     
  4. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Ah, you've been there too...

    I have the impression (with no evidence) that FB washing becomes more demanding with a long 'hold' period. Maybe Ron could comment?

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  5. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    If you use hardener in your fix for fiber-based prints, the emulsion will hold together longer....however it takes longer to wash. It is still not a good idea to let prints (or film) stay wet any longer than is necessary to achieve archival standards.
     
  6. rjas

    rjas Member

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    I've let FB prints sit in water for 3 days with no visible ill effects. Some papers I use lose a bit of white in the highlights and look significantly warmer or creamier than the same paper that has been washed immediately.
     
  7. nze

    nze Member

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    For sure you can. I ususally print late and make the first fix , then put my print in a cold water bath. So I can let them sit like this all night long and start the second fix - toning washing sequence after a long night in the water. I have no probelm with all the paper.

    best
     
  8. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Dear Christian,

    How many decades have you been doing this?

    Have you conducted residual hypo/silver/by-product tests?

    I'm not saying it won't work. I'm just wondering whether anyone has done any hard testing on this.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  9. patrickjames

    patrickjames Member

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    I just recently read in one of Vestal's books that in a test he did for residual hypo, the cleanest prints were produced from an overnight soak. I am not an expert on this, but I have also read that washing works by diffusion, in other words, it is not the amount of water that flows over the print, but the amount of time the print is in the water. You should do all of the fixing before washing though, otherwise you are just wasting time.

    Patrick
     
  10. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Dear Patrick,

    Question answered! Thanks.

    I believe desorption is also an issue, but I doubt it's relevant here.

    Probably a lot depends on the duration of the first pre-soak wash, though.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  11. nze

    nze Member

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    Hello Roger,

    I use it for a long time for my night printing session. you may also remind that Ansel adams in is priting book write that he store print in cold water, waiting for the end of the session and the final archival sequence.

    I did some test on my archival sequence and I finally have an archivable print .
    I wash my print by making 12 changement of water. That's take me some time as I squege each print before putting it in a new water bath. Butusing this system I get an archivable print after 9 baths . SO I just add 3 to be sure.

    Best
     
  12. patrickjames

    patrickjames Member

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    I would also think that you would want the print to be reasonably washed before the soak since there would be no point to soak the paper in fixer laden water. I think Vestal recommended one hour for the first wash.

    Patrick
     
  13. George Papantoniou

    George Papantoniou Member

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    I agree, but the water in which you soak the prints should be renewed or changed once in a while, because the fixer from the prints you put in it will contaminate it. The amount of fixer passing from the prints to the water depends on how much fix is diluted in the water. The more contaminated by fix the water is, the slower the fix from within the prints will come out of them and in the water. It's a procedure that resembles osmosis, I guess... if you accept that the paper could act as a "solution" since it carries a liquid in its fibers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmosis
     
  14. goros

    goros Subscriber

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    Actually, the washing is done by osmosis, not by "dragging" the chemicals out of the paper. The best washing is changing the whole water of the tray every 5 minutes, 8 or 10 times.

    Cheers
     
  15. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    Maybe it also depends on the particular paper?. I print on Ilford Warmtone FB, develop, 2 bath fix and hold in really dilute wash aid overnught. The next day I Selenium tone in toner/wash aid solution and wash for 45 minutes in an Arkay washer. I have had no problems with prints or emulsion separation...EC
     
  16. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    Introduces interesting problems with some of the Kentmere papers, Kentona especially, where the wet time is recommended not to be longer than 30 minutes. I have had ugly yellow spots develop on Kentona paper that were in a holding bath, waiting for an archival wash. Total wet time maybe two hours.
    No other paper (that I have tried) has exhibited this problem.

    Just for your information, in case you like Kentmere papers (which I do).

    - Thomas
     
  17. dpurdy

    dpurdy Member

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    I print all day long most days. I only wash once a day at the end, however I store the prints in a 16x20 zone 6 archival washer that has no drain in the bottom. So the prints store floating on edge. Occassionally during the day it occurs to me to run some fresh water into the washer. I use the Kentmere and sometimes oriental wt FB and have had no emultion or paper problems at all. The only problem I have run into was before I had the 16x20 washer. I used to store prints all day in a 24x30 deep tray. I would sometimes find that algae had developed I think because the hypo takes the chlorine out of the water. The algae would sometimes adhere to the prints unless I was really careful to get it all off while the print was still soaking wet.
    dennis
     
  18. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    I'll have to disagree. Osmosis may be induced by the
    use of solutions of high ionic strength. Solutions of that
    type and proper temperature can be used to purposely
    create reticulation effects in the emulsion.

    But all that is a long way from the wash process although a
    print coming from something like film strength fix to a water
    rinse might be expected to experience some little osmotic
    pressure; the gelatin acting weakly as a
    semi-permeable membrane.

    An accurate picture of what is going on during the
    wash process is obtained by viewing the process as
    purely one of diffusion. Dan
     
  19. jolefler

    jolefler Member

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    So here's a related question:

    I've been a film pre-soaker for the past quarter century or so.

    Would pre-soaking my FB paper in water before developement/stop/fix reduce the chemical saturation of the print, thereby reducing soak times? I always soak-n-dump wash my prints with one hypo clearing soak sometime in the middle of the process.

    Jo.
     
  20. kevs

    kevs Member

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    Hi PVia,

    I'm now wary of leaving good prints in water longer than necessary.

    Whilst preparing a college exhibition as a student, I left prints drying over the weekend without draining them properly. The prints acquired horrid white marks where water had pooled on the surface - as it dried it reacted with the air to destroy the image silver.

    Later when I bleached other prints for sulphide toning, more of these marks - typically white rings or lines - appeared from nowhere.

    Obviously something was happening at the air - water interface and reacting with the image although i have no clue as to its cause. The paper was Multigrade IV Matt FB - this emulsion seems softer than the glossy and is probably more vulnerable.

    So if you do leave good, final prints in wash water overnight, it might be wise to ensure that they have no access to the air, and be a bit wary of this problem, especially if you plan to tone them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2007