Capacity of Fuji Hunt C41 X-press kit

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by jrydberg, Jan 18, 2010.

  1. jrydberg

    jrydberg Member

    Messages:
    84
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I've searched through the previous threads related to Fuji Hunt but haven't found a good answer to my question, so I try again.

    According to the manual the capacity for 120 format ISO 400 and above films is 8 rolls for 5L. After that the chemicals can be re-used up to a total of 32 rolls, with adjusted development timings.

    If you want to run 1L instead of 5L, the capacity is 1.6 rolls per 1L.

    My JOBO ATL-1500 can hold ~700mL in its bottles, which leaves me with a capacity of about 1 roll.

    Is my calculations correct?

    * Should I develop one roll of 400 ISO film at a time in at least 700mL?

    * Am I correct that I can not fully develop a 220 roll with my ATL-1500 and the Fuji Hunt chemicals?

    How do you guys and gals use your chemicals?
     
  2. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,948
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2004
    Location:
    South Norfol
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I process 3 rolls of 120 C-41 film without issue in 470ml solution (Fujihunt used one-shot) using a Jobo ATL-2300.

    Tom
     
  3. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

    Messages:
    1,062
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Location:
    Prospect (Lo
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Follow the solution-volume guide under the Jobo's lid (left top panel) and you're golden.

    I get 6 or 7 rolls of 120 per liter of C-41 without difficulty in my 1500.
     
  4. jrydberg

    jrydberg Member

    Messages:
    84
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    MikeSeb: So you're using just enough chemicals to cover film? And then you pour back the used chemicals into the container to make 1L again?
     
  5. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

    Messages:
    1,062
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Location:
    Prospect (Lo
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I go by the guide on the top cover of the Jobo. You look at the diagram, which depicts various combinations of tanks and reels. You then fill the solution tanks using the sight glasses; half full (one half the sight glass turns dark), mostly full (both halves of sight glass are dark), or full to the brim. This method sacrifices maximum utilization of chemistry (just a bit) for ease and convenience.

    You can also look up the exact solution volumes in the Jobo's manual and measure out those volumes, according to which tank and reels you're loading. This way is a bit more precise, and uses slightly less chemistry than does the sight-glass method. And with the Jobo, everything is one-shot. Nothing is reused.

    These machines are set up to get the job done with the minimum chemistry needed to process the film. The indicated solution volumes are calibrated so that the film is both physically submerged while in the tank, and so that sufficient chemistry is present to process the film. They are really oriented towards color emulsions so their solution volumes are calibrated accordingly. I've never had a problem in hundreds of rolls, except when I've screwed up somehow (exhausted chemistry, forgetting to fill one of the bottles, etc.)

    When I'm doing B&W I have to base my volumes on minimum developer needed per roll (eg 100mL stock with Xtol) and desired dilution (eg, 200 mL solution per roll with Xtol 1+1).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2010
  6. jrydberg

    jrydberg Member

    Messages:
    84
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    From what I've read the JOBO volumes just describe the amount of liquid needed to cover the film.

    So I should be able to develop 2 rolls of 120 format ISO 400 film in just 250mL?

    BTW, I've managed to reuse chemicals from the JOBO, but with ... well, not always perfect result. Works better for E6 than C41 though.
     
  7. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

    Messages:
    1,062
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Location:
    Prospect (Lo
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Not sure what else to say, except that the volumes both cover the film and process it to perfection. The jobo's were built with color processing in mind. My results have been flawless through hundreds of rolls of C-41.
     
  8. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,202
    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Location:
    Daventry, No
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I don't know how the ATL 1500 works but the sellers of the kit seem to claim 60-80 films per kit. In a CPE-2 the tank for 120 film uses 240ml(say 250 for convenience) and the reel will take 2 x 120 films which seems to accord with your question above. So that 8 films per litre or 40 films per 5L and all one shot. However as I understand it the chems can be re-used. You've said 8 rolls then plus 32 with re-used chems which is also 40 rolls. It sounds as if the ATL 1500 isn't as economical as the CPE2 but only you will know know this.

    As Mike has said the Jobo unit gives the vols required for the films in terms of coverage and it seems that the chems manufacturer says how often the chems can be re-used.

    If you use the vols stated by Jobo then the film will be covered correctly. Jobo hasn't got it wrong. It knows what is required for its equipment. The rest is down to the chems manufacturer in terms of re-useage.

    I can't help feeling we are missing what it is you want to know but like Mike and Tom I too am at a loss to grasp what it is that you think we are not telling.

    pentaxuser
     
  9. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

    Messages:
    369
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I just read from Jobo AG site the ATL-1500 manual. It has a table in paragraph 5.3 that gives the volume of chemical for all the combination of drum, reel and film. If you have followed this table provided by Jobo I really have to ask how do you know that it is for the C-41 process? It does not say anything about which process the numbers are for.

    I also just read my ATL-2300 manual. On page 23 it shows a same table in the ATL-1500 manual. However, on my ATL-2300 manual it does say: The quantities listed on the tank and drum labels are the minimum needed. Some processes may require higher volume for proper results.

    I have about 10 Jobo drums. the numbers of the drums are the same as listed on the table on the manual. On the drum it does not say the numbers are for C-41, E-6 or whatever. The numbers may be for RA-4, EP-2, EP-200. I wonder if it is correct to assume that the numbers are for C-41.

    On the other hand, here is Kodak's tech pub Z-131:
    http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z131_03.pdf

    Look at table 3-3. The table shows the capacity of unreplenished Kodak C-41 developer. A gallon of the developer can develop 11 rolls of lower speed (ISO 200 and below) but only 9 rolls of higher speed 120 films. It also says 2 rolls of higher speed 120 negatives per liter. I am sure you can do more than 2 rolls. The numbers may be a little conservative. But 6 - 7 rolls per liter seems very aggressive.

    Fujihunt C-41 chemicals are compatible with Kodak so the capacity of Fujihunt should be similiar to Kodak's.
     
  10. jrydberg

    jrydberg Member

    Messages:
    84
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I'm just trying to figure out how much chemicals to use. (I know how much to use to cover the film).

    The Fuji Hunt manual states that you should only develop 8 rolls of ISO 400 film in 5L of single-use chemicals. I believe the number is 12 rolls for ISO 100 film (I do not have the manual here so I can not check). Which is pretty far from Tom's 3 rolls in ~500mL.

    The manual also states that you can re-use the chemicals a number of times, with adjusted timing.

    I guess the best way to find out is to experiment. The problem with that is that I really don't know how to see if a color negative has been fully developed. :/
     
  11. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,948
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2004
    Location:
    South Norfol
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    To repeat myself, I use the Fujihunt kit one-shot in the Jobo, which is how the Jobo is designed to be used. In terms of quantity I make a generous hunch as to how much solution to use, not extrapolated from the Fujihunt documentation which doesn't address Jobo use. Fuji / Kodak / Agfa C-41 solutions should be functionally equivalent.

    Tom
     
  12. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,202
    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Location:
    Daventry, No
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Just to re-iterate what Tom and the other's have said, Jobo's quantities are designed to provide enough chems to develop film. So when the 1500 tank for a CPE2 says 140mls then you can take it that 140mls is enough to do the film using rotation. Jobo cannot and will not presume to say how many films the same 140mls will do. That's for the chemical manufacturer to say. Most C41 chems will do several films and usually there is a time extension to be applied after film 1 or 2. I only have experience of 1500 tanks on a CPE2 but you can take it from me that for rotary processing 140mls( I usually use 150 as it is easier to measure and "for luck") is enough for a C41 film. I am assuming that the ATL 1500 gives figures for quantities in the same way.

    Provided that you are getting enough films developed in 5L to make the kit value for money then if this is less than might be theoretically developed, I'd be inclined to be cautious about pushing it. No point in accepting lower quality for the sake of saving a few pennies, especially if the film is a one-off and the shots cannot be easily taken again.

    If you really want to see what the limit is, I'd use short clips of film of inconsequential negs and continue using the same chems with time adjustment until the clips fail to meet your standards.

    pentaxuser
     
  13. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,948
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2004
    Location:
    South Norfol
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I agree. The Fuji C-41 kit is about £30 from Ag Photographic, so assuming 25 or 30 rolls per 5 litre kit, cost per roll is around £1 to £1.20 per roll, which to my "value-o-meter", works out as cheap enough.

    Tom
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,202
    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Location:
    Daventry, No
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Tom It is even better value in a 1500 tank where even one shot it will do 40 rolls( 2 rolls per reel with 250ml). However reading the OP's posts again I can understand why he asked the questions. From the way he read the instructions it seems he had the impression, as I might have had as well, that the 5L kit was very uneconomical. I think he is U.S based so it might well be more expensive or cheaper than here.

    Hopefully he will have worked out that the ATL -1500 is still quite economical, although it appears that for what I understand to be a more automated process compared to the CPE2, you pay a penalty in volume used.

    At 1.6 rolls per litre of chems, I would give up C41 processing and Mr Fuji-Hunt should give up walking down dark alleys for his own safety :D:

    pentaxuser
     
  16. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

    Messages:
    369
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Jobo never said that 140 ml is for which process (C-41, E-6, Ciba, XTOL or whatever), did it? In fact Jobo also said that the volume printed on the tank is the minimum volume required (to cover the film). That's not saying that much of chemical is potent enough to process the film.

    I understand many have said that they got great results by following these numbers on the tank. My experience from using my ATL-2300 by following the numbers on the tanks were simply not the same. Perhaps I should add. I shot mainly 220 ISO 400 films. They demand more volume of developer. I could not achieve a perfect 220 ISO 400 single roll of negative by processing it with 500 ml of Kodak C-41 developer. But when I did it with 850 ml the result was nearly perfect. Then by checking Kodak's tech pub Z-131 850 ml is marginal still. I had fewer problems in processing 120 negatives. I believe it was due to the fact that I always had 470 ml for my Jobo tank and that volume is potent enough for a roll of 120.

    I am on a quest to find out exactly what the real capacity of Kodak (and Fujihunt) is capable of to achieve the best quality negative, not anything less. I have a serious doubt about those numbers printed on Jobo tanks since it never specify what process the numbers are for. Ever tried the same numbers on E-6? Don't try it. I wasted many precious rolls of Velvia 50 220 rolls before realizing that those numbers were questionable.
     
  17. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

    Messages:
    369
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Low volume home processing is never economical to compete with labs down in the street. The reason for home processing is mainly for quality and fun. I purchase Kodak chemicals directly from the warehouse of a wholesale supplier (California). I use C-41B developer replenisher + starter, C-41RA bleach and regular fix. For less than $300 I get plenty of chemicals for my ATL-2300 for 2 - 3 years. I over bought too much. But my cost per roll of processing down to $1 - $2 each based on 4 220 rolls per gallon.
     
  18. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

    Messages:
    1,062
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Location:
    Prospect (Lo
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    The under-lid diagram on the Jobo refers to 35mm, 4x5, and 120 film. Some common sense is required here.

    For a 220 roll I'd double the solution volume per roll, up to the capacity of the drum. You probably can't do more than three 220, or six 120, rolls per large drum in the ATL 1000/1500, because the required minimum chemistry to physically process more than that is a volume that exceeds the tank capacity.

    Frankly, this doesn't seem that hard, or complicated. Guess I'm just a simpleton who's gotten perfect results with hundreds rolls and sheets, in both C-41 and E-6, in 35mm, 120, and 4x5 sizes, for the past four years by stupidly following Jobo's directions. What could they possibly know about those processes, or the machines they built?
     
  19. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

    Messages:
    369
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Mike, I have about a dozen of Jobo drums, including 1510, 1520, 1530 and 1540. I also have 25xx drums but I don't use them. I could do one roll of 400VC with 850 ml of developer by using a combination of 1530 and a 1540. I have done it with one 1530 for a single roll of 400VC with 470 ml and the result was simply not on par. It's not a math problem, believe me. The ATL has 1000 ml supply tanks. I can use larger drums but I can have 1000 ml of juice only. That means I can not process two 220 rolls in one process.

    I understand that you have processed hundreds of rolls by following the Jobo numbers. I stopped doing that after a number of ruined rolls. For some reason I do not see perfect negatives that way. Jobo should know that for different processes the volume of chemicals required for different films are different. Why do they provide only one set of volumes for all processes? I can point out flaws in the numbers. They give a same volume for a same drum but different number of rolls of films. See the table you will find that. I don't have it on hand now.
     
  20. Iwagoshi

    Iwagoshi Subscriber

    Messages:
    455
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Location:
    NorCal
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Mike I totally agree, seems pretty simple to me as well. The tank say to use 240ml or 270ml or whatever, that's what I do and things turn out just fine.
     
  21. guyjr

    guyjr Member

    Messages:
    126
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Location:
    NJ
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    My understanding (the one I've been using the last few months as I learn how to do C-41 and E-6 processing at home with a Jobo CPE-2 Plus) is this - the numbers that Jobo publishes are the minimum volumes needed to fully immerse the film contained in the tank / reel combination stated. So, for my 2521 tank, 2509 reel, and one roll of 120 film, 170ml of mixed chemical is required to fully cover the film. For 2 120 rolls, or 1 220 roll, 270ml of chemical is required.

    Now... the second part is the more important - what does the chemical manufacturer tell you is required for a given roll of film? Well, for Kodak, they spell it out explicitly in the z-pubs - in terms of chemical required per square foot of film. I simply rolled out a full length of 120 film one day, measured the square footage, and determined the chemical minimums - using the E-6 kit (only kit available here in the states!), for a 220 roll, I calculated it is about 312.5ml required. For 120 it is close enough to 270ml that I just use that. Note also that the E-6 kit is strictly one-shot - no re-use of chemicals at all.

    I've found that going from that, to a Tetenal C-41 kit (I'd do Kodak or Fuji if a kit was available here tho!), has been much less precise, as Tetenal provide literally the bare minimum of documentation with their kit. (yeah, even the liquid one). So for now, I'm mostly guesstimating what it should be based on my experiences with the Kodak kit, and using those minimums... but I am also reusing the chemistry. I processed three 120 rolls a few weeks ago in about 250ml of chemistry, reused between each run, and all seemed to come out as expected. I'd much rather have the reliability of a Kodak Z-pub to pull a real value from, but for now, this is what I'm able to do.
     
  22. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,202
    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Location:
    Daventry, No
    Shooter:
    35mm
    The OP must do what he must do as John Wayne said but all I can say is that I have used the Tetenal C41(liquid), the Nova C41 press kit(powder) and the Speedibrews C41 kit(powder). With all three I have followed the Jobo volumes and have found no problem. There might be problems with the kind of very large dilutions(1:100 or more) that are found with Rodinal in a 35mm tank which for rotary processing needs only 140mls but I have found no such problems with C41.

    pentaxuser
     
  23. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

    Messages:
    369
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Guyjr, I looked at a Jobo 1530 tank. The numbers printed on it is 330 ml for 2 rolls of 220. Kodak's tech pub Z-119 (for E-6) says the minimum volume of First Developer required for rotary processing is 250 ml per square foot (the area of a 220 roll). That means it required 500 ml for two rolls. That's very different from 330 ml Jobo says. I don't think Jobo knows more about E-6 chemicals thank Kodak. I am certain the result will be a disaster if I process two rolls of 220 C-41 with 330 ml of developer.
     
  24. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

    Messages:
    1,062
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Location:
    Prospect (Lo
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    So the issue seems to be whether the solution volumes listed by Jobo are sufficient both to physically submerge the film loaded on its reels within the dev tanks, and to chemically process that amount of emulsion area. The solution bottles hold 750mL, but no process run by the Jobo requires more than 660mL of solution. Well, I located and dragged out the manual for my ATL-1000/1500 (they are identical except for the control head) to try to bring some (further) clarity to this thread. I don't have a digital version, nor the capability at present to scan and post it. So bear with me through a tedious post.

    Section 4.3, "Determining Chemical Amount in Solution Bottles", talks about two ways to determine required solution volume:

    • a more precise method of measured amounts of chemistry, by reference to a table on page 24 in the manual, based on the desired number of rolls or sheets. Looking at your beloved 220 rolls, the table indicates that to process three rolls of 220 (the most you can do in one batch) requires the larger tank and 660mL of measured solution, while to do three 120 rolls requires the larger tank and 330mL solution. This works out to about 110mL per 120 roll "equivalent". So this is what Jobo says it will take to submerge and to process a 120 roll equivalent (two 120 = one 220.)

    • a quicker method using one of three standardized solution volumes: 170mL, 300mL, or 640mL, determined by looking at a sight glass in each chem bottle that darkens as it is filled. Half dark = 170mL, all dark = 300mL, filled to 1 inch below the bottle neck = 640mL. These three amounts will cover every permutation of film and tank size. The quick method is what is referenced by the illustration printed on a sticker atop the machine itself. This sticker lists fewer permutations of tank and film as befits its simpler orientation. The quick method may require slightly more solution for a given roll/tank combo than the measurement method in certain instances, but is easier and quicker to use.

    I've always used the quick method, and it's never failed me with either C-41 or E-6. The simplified sticker table lists nothing for for 220 film, but does list something for six 120's, which when loaded on the three reels is exactly the same thing (two 120 per reel = one 220 per reel, identical.) For this, you need the maximum-full setting of 640mL, while for three rolls of 120 you need the large tank and 300mL solution (sight glass all dark, ie, intermediate fill capacity.) So by either method of filling, Jobo says you need 100-110 mL solution to physically cover, and to chemically process, a 120 roll equivalent. Pretty close.

    The question seems to be, then, whether this 100-110 mL of solution is enough solution to actually process the film, even if it's enough to submerge/cover the film.

    Enter Kodak Publication J-83 and TI2443 for E-6, and Z-131 for C-41. For E-6, there are different solution capacities listed between the two publications, and depending on which kit (5L or 3.8L) you use, so it gets quite confusing. Depending on which set of numbers you use, they work out to between 125-250mL solution per roll to process the film (issues of submerging it aside) without time compensation, ie, using a first dev time 6:00 in a rotary processor.

    You can stretch this by increasing the first dev time to 6:30, such that you effectively require less solution per roll. Interestingly, the Jobo's default E-6 first dev time is 6:30, so it's preconfigured to stretch the solution capacity via time compensation. That calculation works out to about 115-170mL per roll, depending on which set of numbers you use. Given that there's more than a 100% variance in the times listed, there must be a lot of wiggle room built into E-6 solution capacities. In any case, it's evident that Jobo has pushed the efficiency of chemistry use to its absolute maximum. But at least for E-6, there's sufficient overlap between Kodak's and Jobo's numbers to accept that it all works.

    The situation is somewhat wierder for C-41. Z-131 seems to indicate that a liter will do only up to about three 120 rolls, which implies around 330 mL per roll. This is significantly more solution to chemically develop than the Jobo calls for, yet it all seems to work beautifully. I regularly process a 120 roll with less than 150mL of solution, with perfect results. I've come across web discussion threads calling into question the accuracy of Kodak's capacity information in z-131; evidently stated capacities have decreased since earlier versions of the information. Further, the Tetenal "press" kits for C-41 require only about 120mL per roll, roughly three times the capacity of the Kodak chems. So not entirely clear what's afoot here.

    Bottom line, despite all the uncertainties, processing either C-41 or E-6 in a Jobo ATL-1000/1500 yields flawless results using the chemical volumes Jobo calls for. It seems safe to say that those are enough, but that 220 rolls require about twice the chemistry to do the job. I don't have any further explanation to offer.
     
  25. jrydberg

    jrydberg Member

    Messages:
    84
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    So here's what I'm gonna do;

    Shoot two identical rolls. Send one to the lab, and develop the other one in 125mL in my JOBO. If they are on par; fine! Otherwise I'll have to start experimenting with larger volumes to get better results.

    Also, I've developed two rolls of C41 in 250mL of Tetenal C41 and the result wasn't great. Color casts, like seen in this picture; http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2078/2471264103_73653494f0_o.jpg From that point on I always ran two rolls in at least 500mL, and re-used the chemicals, with better result.

    Using Kodaks single-use E6 kit I've had to set the first developer to 7:30 when developing two rolls of Fuji Astia in 250mL, and they still come out on the dark side.
     
  26. jrydberg

    jrydberg Member

    Messages:
    84
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Developed two (ISO 160) rolls in 250mL of chemicals.

    The negatives turned out thin, and the colors are off. (blue turned mangenta, white is too cyan)