Carbon Information

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by photo8x10, Jun 20, 2006.

  1. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Hello everyone,

    I'm reading the Sandy King's book, and I Think it's amazing book to learn this print technique. I've never print in carbon and my next step will be to start it.
    Now I have some questions:

    1) I'm looking for gelatine in Italy and I don't find it, so in Internet I've foind only 250 bloom gelatin, If I understand well this number is the hardener of it higher number is more water it can be absorb. In his book Sandy explain lots of formula with 175 blooms gelatin, What difference in term of measure(percentage or weight in formula)?

    2) About a pigment, I would like to do monochrome print, and not with strange colours(now I'm not interested in them), I would like to use black pigment. What are your advices? From Artcraft chemicals(where I usually buy my chemicals) in list there is black Lamp, I Think it is a pigment, is anyone use it? and if yes Are good to print in carbon?

    Thanks for your reply, and your advices.

    Best

    Stefano :smile:
     
  2. John Jarosz

    John Jarosz Member

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    Sandy's book has a lot of info and is a fine book on the subject. I have learned a lot from it.

    I've made many carbons, but I have not made my own carbon tissue. I started many years ago with Haefenstengel material (not made anymore). I have good success with carbon tissue made by Bostick & Sullivan
    http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/

    The reason I recommend purchasing carbon tissue is that the carbon process is difficult enough for newbies without also having to make their own tissue. If you use some commercial tissue and get experience with it, making your own tissue can be a "second step" in learning the processes. Bostick & Sullivan has very detailed instructions on the use of their tissue that will enable you to have good success the first time.

    This is my opinion of course, but I feel it will help you to make prints the first tiome you try.

    John
     
  3. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Stefano,

    About the gelatins, I use both 250 and 175 Bloom gelatin. Basically, the higher Bloom the gelatin the less you need to use per liter. So, an 8% solution of 250 Bloom gelatin has about the same viscosity as a 10% solutoin of 175 Bloom or a 15% solution of 100 Bloom. Both will work but have different setting characteristics.

    As for pigments, a good monochrome pigment is lampblack in tube watercolor. You can also use other pigment in liquid dispersion forms, such as those meant for mixing in the industrial paint trade. I do not recommend powder pigments as it is time consuming to grind them.

    Best,

    Sandy
     
  4. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Sandy,

    Could you give me a good dealer where I could buy a pigments? And in your experience what's the better kind or brand of pigments?

    Best

    Stefano
     
  5. tsobota

    tsobota Member

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    Stefano, you could try Ditta Dolci (http://www.dolcicolor.it/index.html). They are in Verona, probably not far from where you are. They have earths, iron oxides, aqueous dispersions and such, in case you really want to prepare your own tissue from powder pigments. Or else, try Maimeri water colors in tube. Maimeri is good and it is italian, so you will find their products easily in art shops. I think that their water color line is called MaimeriBlu.

    Ciao
    Tom Sobota
    Madrid, Spain
     
  6. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Thanks Tom,

    I'm watching the dolci's site, and I've found somethings interesting.

    :smile: Best

    Stefano
     
  7. tsobota

    tsobota Member

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  8. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Great!!!!!

    A Good Dealer is near my home......

    Best

    Stefano
     
  9. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Hi :smile:

    today I tried to make my carbon tissue, a little amount, and for my first experience I used a food gelatine and a Maimeri watercolour.

    I did 500 ml of solution, I used 40 gr of gelatine(I don't know bloom) and 10 gr of watercolour(more and less half of 15ml tube)

    I followed the Sandy King's book, and I think I did a "good" job.
    I tried also to cot it in a paper with terrible result, only 3 sheets are almost good.

    I would like to know if the amount of watercolour I used is a good point of start? Because I 'm not sure it's the right amount.
    And what's the best method to coat my sheets? I did it without a square.

    Best

    Stefano :wink:
     
  10. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Hi Stefano,

    Describe exactly how you coated and the problems you encountered. Include the following if you can remember or wrote it down. 1) room temperature and humidity, 2) temperature of glop when you poured it on the paper, 3) how much glop you poured for a given print size, and 4) how did you spread the glop to the edges of the paper. Did you use a frame? And, did you remember to level the coating surface?


    The amount of watercolor pigment you used sounds about right to me.

    Sandy
     
  11. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Hi Sandy
    I think my problem are somethings about temperature.
    I wrote it down your question, I usually take note of some parameters when I print with AZO or PT/PD.
    1)room Temperature 26°C and Humidity 55
    2)Temperature of glop 39°
    3) I used for my 5x7 print an amount of glop 20ml
    4)I used a glass rod I spread to the edges in a movement up/down slowly enough but I didn't fell solution very sticky. I think I use the rod in a bad way for this kind of paper preparation.
    I didn't use a frame, but It will be my next step to prepare.
    I leveled my coating surface.

    Thanks for your advices

    Best

    Stefano :smile:
     
  12. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Stefano,

    A glass rod is no good for coating carbon tissue, unless you use it in combination with a flexible magnetic sheet. If you just push it over the glop you will be left with very little coating height, and you need a lot for carbon, up to about 1mm or even more.

    The best approach is to use a flexible magnetic sheet with a frame cut out in it over a piece of galavanized sheet. Second best is to cut out some kind of frame in another material and position this over the paper. Just pour the warm glop into the center of the frame onto the paper and spread it evenly (and very quickly) to the edges of the paper. You must do this on a perfectly level surface, of course.

    Your temperature and humidity conditions sound ok, as does about 20ml for a 5X7" tissue.

    Sandy
     
  13. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Sandy,

    Thanks a lot, in my next coating try I'll change somethings after your advice.
    I haven't understand well what's a flexible magnetic sheet, I haven't seen.
    what material is built it? so Maybe I 'm able to find it here in Italy. I'm sure my next step I'm building my frame, but to spread the glop what do you use? I have a beautiful steel rod, I can use it to spread the glop or better use my fingers or other to spread and level the glop in the frame? if i remember the glop should level a bit by itself.

    It's a pity that your workshop are so far to me and now I can't come, maybe one day....I can do it.....

    Best

    Stefano
     
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  15. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Stefano,

    The kind of flexible magnetic sheeting I use can be purchsed from McMaster Carr. It is a plastic sheet that has magnetic attraction. You cut a frame in the sheet of the size you want for your carbon tissue. Then, to use, you place a piece of final support (paper or plastic)bou on a piece of galvanized steel, then place the flexible magneitc frame over the paper. This creates a frame with a dam on every side which contains the glop while warm.

    You can buy this product from http://www.mcmaster.com/
    Do a search on flexible magnetic sign material. You want material with no adhesive and about 0.5mm to 1.0mm thick.

    You may find this at places where outdoor signs are made. This is one of the many uses of this material.

    Sandy
     
  16. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Hi Sandy,

    I surfed in your site, there are lots of things, I think I will find somethings of similar to mcmaster site, I add here the link, in English, because this seller is in Italy, so easier to me for buy.
    the link is:
    http://www.magnetta.com/enhtm/magneticfoils.htm
    Can you watch if is a similar to your material? (more and less)

    Thanks

    Stefano :smile:
     
  17. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Hi Stefano,

    I looked at the site. That looks like the right material.

    Sandy
     
  18. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    I haven't tried carbon, but I hope to soon. Therefore, this question is truly blind. Hunt makes a line of water soluble block printing inks. Has anyone tried these as pigments for carbon or gum processes? Any hints?
     
  19. sanking

    sanking Member

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    I am not familar with the Hunt water soluble printing inks. Do you know if they are dyes or pigments?

    Sandy
     
  20. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    I dug around and found I didn't have any of the Hunt Speedball water soluble block printing ink. It is available, however, and it's big advantage is price. I did turn up some of the Grumbacher water soluble block printing ink, however (who knows how old it is!). The labeling was not helpful. I smeared some on a slide and took a look under a microscope. I suspect it's dye based, since I couldn't see any pigment particles even at 400X. It is also very opaque.
     
  21. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Hi Sandy,

    After I found a magnetic sheets, I ordered them, I tried another time to make tissue with a plastic frame, and, terrific, I did.
    I was able to make four tissue sheets, two directlly in a paper support, two I made with a transfert process. And I made a almost good tissue. Sincerly I have to improve a lot but this first result are for me very important because I've understood some little things to make a good tissue. I'm sure that magnetic sheet will be a next step to improve my technic.
    The next week with this four tissue I'm going to try to make prints.

    Best

    Stefano
     
  22. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Hi sandy,

    I ordered magnetis sheet, and I found it nearby my home. Now I've a little doubt about the transfert.
    I a single transfert I have to coat my paper with gelatin hardened, but in a double tranfert, the intermediate should be coat by gelatin? The final support in double transfert is coated with a thin layer of gelatin.

    Best

    Stefano
     
  23. sanking

    sanking Member

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    For single transfer the final support could be fixed out photographic paper, or a paper coated with hardened gelatin.

    For double transfer, develop the image on plastic, then when dry transfer it to a sheet of paper coated with a layer of unhardened gelatin.

    Sandy
     
  24. donbga

    donbga Member

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    Sandy,

    Does your book cover the details of double transfer? I've tried the B&S tissue (carbon black) and transferred to fixed out photo paper. After it was all said and done I can't see much difference in the results than one might expect by just printing directly on silver gelatin. Perhaps other colors would give a different impression.

    Sam Wang told me that in his opinion double transfers give the most beautiful results. But what does he know? :smile:
     
  25. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Don,

    I cover double transfer in the book. However, the impression you are getting is due more to the nature of the B&S tissue than to the type of transfer. Dick up to this point has made a very thin tissue that does not produce a lot of relief. You will certainly get a different look with it by transfering to sized art papers than to fixed out photographic papers, but you will not get much relief.

    In making my own tissue I routinely coat very thick so that the final dry height is 6X-8X more than that of the B&S tissue. This gives a lot of relief, something I very much like to see in my carbon prints.

    Sandy
     
  26. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    Hi everyone,
    I did my first carbon prints.....a disaster!!!!!
    My first carbon image was simple transfert, and the transfert was done, but I didn't expose my tissue for the right time, so the relief image washed off.
    I tried to do another image with more exposure time, and I tried to do the transfert in a polivynilic but surprise......the tissue didn't transfert to polyvinilic plastic and I'm able to see my image on the carbon tissue.
    What was wrong?:confused:
    What are my mistakes?:sad:

    Thanks

    Stefano