Chinese Amidol Analysis

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by symmar_man, Dec 21, 2007.

  1. symmar_man

    symmar_man Member

    Messages:
    24
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Location:
    West Virgini
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    For those that are interested, Dale Grant has posted his chemical analysis of the Chinese Amidol on the MAS site;

    http://michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoFor...ID=10524&CID=5

    Looks like contamination of Fe and Ni are responsible for the red wine color and I would say the high amount of Sn and possibly other contaminants would be responsible for the black sludge.

    B. Dalton
     
  2. Alex Hawley

    Alex Hawley Member

    Messages:
    2,894
    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Very interesting. Any chance of a recall (just kidding)?
     
  3. Snapshot

    Snapshot Member

    Messages:
    914
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Location:
    Toronto, Ont
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Why isn't this entirely surprising?
     
  4. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    9,284
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2002
    Location:
    Bergen, Norw
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Your link is buggered - it should be http://michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum/one.asp?ID=10524&PgNo=&GID=10524&CID=5

    The table is buggered too, but at least it's possible to read if you know what you're looking for.

    What's worse is that it doesn't make sense at all! There is absolutely no way that 98% Amidol can contain 39.18% Magnesium and 11.24% Calcium by weight.

    Which means that what is presented is the percentages of those elements which have been analysed, with no way of finding out what fraction this is of the whole. For all the analysis tells us, the Chinese amidol could actually be far purer than the reference! And what kind of spectra have been compared? Light? UV? IR? Xray? Emission or absorption?
     
  5. symmar_man

    symmar_man Member

    Messages:
    24
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Location:
    West Virgini
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Sorry for the incorrect link and thanks Ole for posting the correct one. Way too long a day for me yesterday.

    Note that Mr. Grant has posted a reply to explain how the test was performed. The Amidol was 100% removed in order to more accurately ascertain the impurities and the percentages refer only to elements other than Amidol.

    As is pointed out, there is no way to know the ratio of Amidol to impurities, but I feel it is safe to say that the ratio is sufficient to cause adverse effects to be noted in use. So the amounts of impurities are obviously sufficient to affect the usability of the product.

    An interesting study for sure!

    B. Dalton
     
  6. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    9,284
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2002
    Location:
    Bergen, Norw
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    It's very interesting, but it still needs a bit more data before it's useful. I've replied (again) in the original thread over there. :smile:
     
  7. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser

    Messages:
    19,115
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Location:
    local
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    i don't use amidol, but i know
    people waited a long time
    for this to come their way from china ...
    does this mean that the impurities
    make the chemical pretty much useless
    for print developing?

    if so, that is really sad ... that people had to wait
    all this time, spend all that money and come up
    with something that doesn't work ... or work the way it should

    :sad:
     
  8. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,950
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I don't think anybody is surprised anymore when poor quality product comes out of China. I dodge it unless it's a Holga camera. It's supposed to suck. :smile:

    Like John says, it is a pity if it's not usable. I saw a posting of Jim Galli in the galleries that was printed with that Amidol, and it appeared as if he had to jump through both one and two hoops to get to what he needed, but it was usable to him.

    - Thomas
     
  9. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

    Messages:
    495
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Location:
    Prato- Tusca
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    I've been using this Chinese Amidol and so for, I don't have problem with it....

    Merry Christmas & Happy New Year

    Stefano
    Italy
     
  10. JLP

    JLP Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,610
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Location:
    Oregon
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thomas, you have obviously not been following the thread about a lot of happy new Chamonix camera owners on the LF forum. There's a lot of fine gear coming out of China, some far superior to what is made in the US.

    That put aside, i use the Chinese Amidol and yes, it needs a little extra time in preparation but is working just as it is supposed to do. Lot's of contrast control with a water bath.

    Merry Christmas everyone.

    jan
     
  11. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,824
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Shooter:
    35mm

    Chamonix camera's are good. "Far superior" to a US, or quality camera from some other country? Nah, perhaps "as good as a _____" or "really good for the money" but "far superior" would be a stretch. Thats about as accurate as saying all Chinese products are substandard. My Fotoman is a really good product for the money, but it is definitely not a Horseman or a Linhof.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2007
  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,102
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Iron in a developer, particularly for a chloride emulsion can cause black spots that sometimes are large and sometimes can only be seen with a loupe.

    Tin in a developer will cause fog. It is used as the E6 fogging agent in the reversal bath.

    I hope no one has problems with this material.

    PE
     
  13. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

    Messages:
    3,879
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Location:
    Southern Cal
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The Chinese Amidol works fine for me - the price was certainly right! I don't mind filtering the working developer solution.

    And BTW, I love my 4X5 Shen Hao.
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. bwphoto

    bwphoto Subscriber

    Messages:
    63
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2004
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Nobody mentioned the 'good old stuff' from Artcraft Chemicals that comes from the UK per owner Mike Jacobson. I have been using Artcrafts' Amidol for about a year with no mixing issues and superior prints. You are right about cost but the old adage 'you get what you pay for' comes to mind. Just a thought and another option to the available Chinese variety.
     
  16. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,950
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    All right, all right. Some products coming out of China are good, same as everywhere else. I was more referring to the troubles I have seen personally and what's been reported in the press.

    It's all the 'cutting corners' that keeps surprising and baffling me. Forgive me for being biased. I've just had a lot of bad experience with Chinese products.

    - Thomas
     
  17. noseoil

    noseoil Member

    Messages:
    2,898
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Location:
    Tucson
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thomas, if there is a lot of bad press, problems with lead in toys, problems with the date rape drug on children's beads (what the hell's up with that one?) and many environmental concerns, perhaps it isn't you. If your direct experience is negative, then you have a valid concern and China has a large problem. Unfortunately, until there are real consequences for this national behavior, don't look for any substantive changes. tim
     
  18. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    17,922
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Honolulu, Ha
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Can we stick to the issue of amidol and leave Chinese domestic policy and problems with other Chinese products for the SoapBox?
     
  19. Alex Hawley

    Alex Hawley Member

    Messages:
    2,894
    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    FWIW, I have occasionally had pink staining on prints using Artcraft Amidol, and on a variety of papers, not just one specific brand or type. When it happens, its always on the first, second, and sometimes third print to be developed after mixing the solution. Not being a chemist, I cannot explain why this happens, nor will I try to. Once one or two prints have been developed, everything settles down and works fine.

    Doesn't happen every time, just occasionally.
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,102
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Alex;

    You may be using up or absorbing some contaminant. IDK, but I have had that before in some situataions where a photo active ingredient is present at a very low concentration and is used up.

    PE
     
  21. noseoil

    noseoil Member

    Messages:
    2,898
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Location:
    Tucson
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    With the amidol situation as it is, it sounds like there might be a couple of things to do in general. Since it is mixed once per session, these precautions might be in order and I guess I'll be doing them each time I use some. Anyone care to add to this list of remedies?

    First : strain the developer once it is mixed, coffee filter, paper towel, napkin or whatever seems to be fairly fine, easy and cheap to use
    Second: take an unexposed sheet of sacrificial paper (cheap again, not first quality) and dunk it in the developer for a couple of minutes, then toss
    Third: make prints
     
  22. Alex Hawley

    Alex Hawley Member

    Messages:
    2,894
    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    That's a good, plausible explanation Ron. Some sort of compound is formed during mixing then reacts with the paper emulsion. I've come to believe that its a quirk of amidol that has to be lived with.
     
  23. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    17,922
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Honolulu, Ha
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    How often is the first print of a session a final version? If it's a test print anyway, a little staining usually isn't important.
     
  24. Alex Hawley

    Alex Hawley Member

    Messages:
    2,894
    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Right David. That applies to all developers IMO. Make sure the chemistry is all settled out, run two or three prints to make sure, or two or three blank pieces of paper.

    My point is that I've seen the pink stain sporadically with what's probably the best amidol that can be obtained. I wonder what it was like in years past when amidol was produced by more sources and in much larger quantities?

    Here's the kicker question: Did Weston have this problem? :tongue: (no debate initiation intended :D).
     
  25. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,102
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Sometimes this small difference can make the evaluation difficult for the change needed for the next print. The curve shape can even change. I've seen that myself and I've ended up chasing an ever changing situation that led me down a garden path with a dead end. I've used up developers that had 'deltas' between every single print, and that is one reason why Liquidol was designed, to eliminate this very problem.

    I don't want to continue, as that would get me accused of 'advertizing', so this is merely an explanation of my answer and I'll leave it at that.

    PE
     
  26. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,157
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Location:
    Los Alamos,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The table is misleading because amidol is mostly C, H, and N, which are not included. The levels still seem high. I would be interested in an MS analysis to identify organics and their levels.