Colorstar 3000 Measuring Probe Covers

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by pentaxuser, Jun 3, 2011.

  1. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    I have dug out my colorstar 3000(8 channel version) again to do some colour neg printing and having examined the accessories supplied with it and thoroughly read the manual but I am still puzzled about exactly what probe covers I actually have. The manual in my opinion doesn't describe the covers very clearly.

    Spot Measuring: I have the clear spot probe cover which I think requires that part 152 is used at all times. This is the translucent part that is placed over the measuring cell and shaped to fit under the clear top 151.

    Am I right in assuming that part 152 is used at all times?

    Selective integral measuring: This is listed as part 104. However I seem to have two different types. The first has a white top which is smooth on both surfaces and underneath has an inverted white plastic dome which has an opening of 17mm. This seems to be designed to diffuse the light from the projected negative but only allow the central 17mm portion to reach the measuring cell

    The other cover I have has a slightly greyer and darker looking smooth top with an underneath section which is quite rough so the light would be very diffused and this cover has no white plastic inverted dome so all the light from the projected neg will register on the measuring cell. In other words this probe cover is the same size as the other covers(60mm across) but will allow a 60mm section of the neg to be projected through the cover, so a much bigger section of diffused neg is measured(60mm v 17 mm)

    Full Integral Measuring: This appears to be provided by a 7cm x7cm sheet of diffusion material which is placed under the lens to give full integral measuring using the clear spot probe cover.

    I think I have understood the parts for spot measuring and full integral measuring but I am confused about what the two white covers are designed for and which one (17mm gap on top of inverted white plastic dome or 60mm cover without any plastic dome ) is the appropriate one for selective integral measuring.

    I think it has to be the one with the 17mm gap but what is the cover with a smooth/rough diffuser for? I could see no reference to two covers in the manual, just to cover 104.

    Hopefully one of our Colorstar 3000 users will be able to clarify matters. Needless to say neither cover has any number on it to help with identification.

    Thanks

    pentaxuser
     
  2. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Well I have had 42 views but presumably none have been Colorstar 3000 users. Hopefully such users will see this and give their opinions about which cover is for the selective intergral measuring. This is the measuring system which Colourstar recommends a newcomer starts with but until I know which is the correct cover I am kind of stuck.

    Thanks

    pentaxuser
     
  3. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    One more bump! I have researched my previous posts on anything to do with the Colorstar and noted that I had mentioned the two different diffused covers. I was getting help on a bigger issue at the time from several users but only Nick Zentenna replied on the covers( maybe he was the only one to spot the question).

    He used the clear spot cover for everything and didn't have the cover I was describing However I noted that Ed Sukach, Mike Wilde, L Gebhardt and hka were also helping. There may be others out there as well.

    A source of info on the Colorstar would help. I might be able to see pictures of the different covers so I can identify the one for selective integral measuring.

    So anyone out there with a Colorstar 3000 who can help?

    Thanks

    pentaxuser
     
  4. hka

    hka Member

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    Pentaxuser,
    I made a scan of the probe covers from the Dutch manual. But I think you will see how the different covers will fit on the probe.
    If you've got any question about it please take contact.
     

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  5. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Thanks hka, I have the same pictures but the last one only shows the top of the cover so I can't tell if the underneath is like my open inverted dome or like the rougher finish cover which has no dome.

    I am convinced that both of my diffused covers are Lici equipment. They came with the Colorstar and fit the probe perfectly and yet the manual only seems to mention one diffused cover which is the 104. One of mine must be the 104 but I don't know which one, nor what the other one is for. It might be for full integral measuring but the clear spot probe plus the 7x7cm diffusion material to fit under the enlarger lens seems to be for this, so it remains a mystery

    I hope you are well. We met on the Oct 2008 Ilford tour. I was in your group in the afternoon. I was the one with the bald head and Scottish accent!

    pentaxuser
     
  6. hka

    hka Member

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    Yes I remember that we met each other at Ilford.
    I hope that I can explain what the differences in use are of the covers.
    In the picture you see the 2 probes.
    Left is the clear one (151) for spot measuring. In this case I fitted already the ∅ 4mm (106) stop. Without this stop ∅ is 6mm.
    Right is the translucent cover for semi-integrated and integrated readings. This is the 104. This one is used for metering a part of the pictures where color and density are fairly neutral, no dominances in color. When in doubt, it is advisable to measure multiple points and then averaging.
    The diffusion material has to be fitted under the lens and is used for fully integrated readings in combination with the 151 with 6mm and of course fitted with the 152. Measuring in the middle of the baseboard.
    Hope this helps.
     

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  7. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Thanks for taking all this trouble, hka, to help me. Much appreciated. It looks as if the diffused cover which doesn't have a plastic white dome underneath is the correct one for selective integral measuring. This leave me wondering what the cover with the inverted white plastic dome underneath and the 17mm opening on top of the dome is for.

    I had assumed that with a hole which was 17mm this was the one which allowed you to measure more accurately smaller areas(17mm areas) on the projected negative.

    Well my logic was wrong but leaves the mystery of the cover with the inverted plastic dome.

    I think I have counted at least 7 Colorstar user here on APUG . Surely I can't be the only one with this cover, can I?

    You are the only one who has responded to the thread and thank goodness you have. If I want to find out what the other cover is for, it looks like I might have to PM each of the other users individually.

    Many thanks

    pentaxuser
     
  8. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

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    Sorry to miss the post. I was on the road all weekend, and holed up in the darkroom yesterday.

    My good old Colourstar 3000 helped me bang out about 75 RA-4 8x10's in about 6 hours. The Fujimoto cp31 roller processor helped an awful lot to sustain that level of thoughput.

    20 of those were the same print, and 15 others were taken under the same light colour, with differences in intensity.

    I printed on old Portra III paper bought as a lark at a camera show last week. 100 sheets for $5. I thought to try it out first; other newer papers were thawed and ready, but the portra did fine, and gave me exactly the look I wanted.

    The pictures were of a theatrical production. the play was a 1960's period farce, that has a sub plot with a 1920's flapper appearing to the lead actor only. The Portra held the details in the white wedding dress of one of the characters very well, and kept colour saturation low, as I desired, for the scenes with the flapper girl, with her matte light toned makeup.

    The colourstar was tuned to read skin tones, and produced even skin tones in photos taken all across the stage, even though my portable strobe heads lighting varied from f/16 at the front to f/8 at the back of the stage.

    I usually just use the full diffuser under the lens for colur balance, and then spot with the print transmittancy cover and it's dffuser left in place.
     
  9. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Thanks Mike. I was hoping that other Colorstar users would add their voices.

    From what you have said, Mike, you don't have the same cover either so my mystery cover remains a mystery cover. I think that you are saying that for measuring you use the 7x7cm diffuser material sheet under the lens but instead of placing the clear spot cover in the middle of the projected neg for full integral measuring you move the the clear spot cover around the neg to get several measurements and this gives a good print. Have I got this right?

    You don't use the diffuse cover 104 as shown by hka and use that in several positions on the projected neg?

    Thanks

    pentaxuser

    PS Do you use the Nova sytem for processing? maybe you can have a look at my other two threads. I am having difficulties with safelight fogging and potential age-fogged paper as well. PE has given some help there but I won't say anymore here otherwise the threads get mixed up.
     
  10. hka

    hka Member

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    Can you place a picture of the probe you mentioned above. Because I don't understand what you mean with your mystery cover.
    The 17mm hole in the clear cover is just for cosine correction. That saying if you place the probe out of center under the lens then you can adjust the lightfall on the probe by tilting the white plate of the sensorhousing so that the shadow of the 17mm space around the sensor is evenly distributed.
     
  11. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Sorry hka I have neither a digital camera nor the skills to operate a very basic scanner that my son left behind but here's a description of the mystery cover.

    Imagine your diffused cover but with a slightly darker but still smooth surface on top. Then instead of a rough surface underneath which is like many small pyramids, it has a smooth surface and over that lower surface is a white plastic cover which ressembles a round tent like the kind you get in a circus. However the top of the "tent" has been cut off to make a round hole which is about 17mm across.

    So when this cover is on the probe the light from the neg strikes the smooth top of the cover but can only penetrate to the measuring cell through the 17mm hole.It cannot penetrate the white plastic which is opaque

    If you took off the white translucent diffused cover on top then you would have a white opaque plastic bowl shape with a hole in the bottom. It is a bowl with a hole in the bottome when looked at from the top and a circus tent with a hole in the top when you turn the cover upside down

    This is the best I can manage as a description. This 17mm hole in the plastic bowl sits directly onto the measuring cell.

    I hope that helps you get a picture of it

    pentaxuser
     
  12. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Mike I replied to this post with my assumptions as to what exactly you do wheh you do it as in the quote.

    I am still not clear on how you use the diffusion material( I think you are talking about the 7x7 cm sheet which is supplied.

    Could you describe the exact sequence used in the quite above? Also any idea as to what my second cover is for. See the posts between me and hka.

    Indded does anyone know?

    Thanks

    pentaxuser
     
  13. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

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    My analyser is OEM by Lici, and also branded as a Lici so I don't know if the onsellers like Jobo for a time use the same catalog #'s.

    I actually bought it off ebay new from a shop in Portugal, and found the English manual on Nick Zentena's web site before he left Toronto and moved to Italy. I don't know if he still has it up.
    I have scans of the pages as pdf's somewhere. It is not the easiest read in the world. Reading it more than once, with no distractions interrupting your thought process is a good way to start to wrap your head arournd what this little gem can do.

    The clear clip on 'thing' for the probe I have with the circle in, which sits about an inch above the cell openning on the sensor I think is used to cast a shadow on the cell area, to aid you to correctly tilt the sensor to overcome what I think others call cosine error.

    My same clear clip on thing has a diffusive lower insert that I think is used to hold down the white or grey part of the test print against the sesnor openning when you slip it under it when the machine is in densitimeter/Cr/Ar mode.

    I have the grey dics with the small openning that can also clip in to my clear probe cover to make it read as a smaller aperture spot meter. I find that the machine complains about there not being enough light when I try to use this, and with only 8 channels, rather than 100, I want to use them for more flexible things too.

    If I have a spot in the frame to set colour on that is too small, I move the head of the enalrger up, balance the colour that is now big enough to read and fill the cell, and then slide the head down and set exposure by some other method.

    The clip on cover that is diffused, with the little pyramid like things underneath I rarely use. I don't find this 'semi integrated' metering meets my style very often.

    Some negs I want to print and not spend all night hunting down the right colour balance do not have a good 'grey equal' or 'caucasian skin equal' that my 8 channels of my 3000 in one way or other are mostly programmed for, to find a good starting filtration to analyse.

    Often this happens on an old film I want to print only one frame from from.
    I will usually first look to see if there are other shots from the same lighting situation may give a skin or grey that are on other frames of the same film.

    If not, than I look for a white or black. These are most usually just different intensities of grey, and can be used to set close to right filtration when you don't know where to start for colour balancing.

    Note here I did not say exposure time. Once the starting filtering is guessed from the above, I will usually then spot measure to see what the different times suggested are. I adjust aperture to be somewhere between 5 and 15 seconds and then may take the average of a few readings that I expect to print as a mid tone, which this great little machine will effortlessly do, to set a starting averaged exposure time.

    The second way to get a starting filtration is to know that if you are outside, and have a shot of the ground, sky and all, the subject when full diffused will usually integrate to a neutral grey. I said usually - a big red flower etc half filling the scene will screw this up.

    So in this case I hold the 7x7cm diffuser under the lens, and flip the machine on a channel I am set for NG on, and dial in the right starting filtration to extinguish all the LED's. I then either single spot filter or average to get the undiffused image exposure time.

    I do not have a channel dedicated to getting the right exposure with the diffuser held in place, but I guess it could be done.

    I have my 8 channels set mostly from the Lici manual's suggestions.
    1-3 are ng, cool caucasian skin, and warm caucasian skin, using the clear probe cover with slight diffusuion clip under that cover.

    4-6 are for the semi diffused cover fro the probe and mostly these don't get used.

    7 is a channel I use for custom to the session setting, like a good green grass, or blue sky, when other things are not handy to meter. I should likely keep a written record of the first time aim points for these things, but I really only print about 5-6 times a year in colour, so it would likley not be so handy.

    Channel 8 I dedicate to b&w mode. I set and leave the master at 50 in B&W mode, and then meter for the slightest hint of grey in the print, and channel reprogram 8 with no filters dialled in to match the test print exposure time when I find it on the first print from a new to me pack of paper. I find this way I don't inadvertently scew up the setting on colour channels. (Ask me how this became a habit!)

    Once the channel sensitivity setting is found, I write the number, usually some where between 620 and 530 on the label of the paper box or envelope. I almost always start with a standard 1:2 dektol or agfa 100 paper developer, and with this number, and a use of the densititometer function to make a first guess on the needed contrast, I get quite a respectable working print the first time when I start with the analyser suggested exposure time.
     
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