Colour slides as black & white?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Kate Mocak, Dec 28, 2004.

  1. Kate Mocak

    Kate Mocak Member

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    Is it possible to develop colour slides as black and white slides (or negatives)? If yes, what is the development process and formulas?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    I read somewhere on the net that you have to change one step of the normal e-6 line and use a toner. Don't remember when!!! :-(
     
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  3. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    Colour slide fillm are only colour slides if you develop it in E-6. If you crossprocess it in C-41 you get negatives. So why not crossprocess the C-41 B&W film into E-6? You'll end up with B&W slides I think.


    Or why not consider any of the B&W slide processes which use B&W film?

    Supposedly you can process colour film in B&W developer to get yourself bad B&W negatives but I don't think that's your goal.
     
  4. rbarker

    rbarker Member

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    Your objective is unclear, Kate, at least to me. Perhaps if you could explain what you are trying to do, and why, the responses could be more directly useful.
     
  5. Kate Mocak

    Kate Mocak Member

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    My goal is to find use for the stack of colour slides which I'd bought before I started doing black & white photography. It would be great if it was possible to develop them as B&W slides. I can experiment, of course, and sacrifice a few rolls, but I'd rather start with a better understanding of what's going to happen and have some predictable results :wink:.
     
  6. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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  7. Jordan

    Jordan Member

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    Kate -- I have tried it according to the method described in the link Alessandro provides. It works, but not that well. I used a Tetenal 3-bath kit and replaced the colour dev with sepia toner. The resulting slides are way too dense and even several stops' overexposure doesn't improve things much. There is simply too much highlight density in the resulting slides and I think it has to do with the toner interacting with developed silver.

    Note that you need to use a slide-developing kit to try this anyway, or home-brew a very active and solventy first-developer and a mild-ish bleach-fix formula. Regular B&W reversal processes use bleaches that absolutely destroy slide film (I have tried this too).

    Have a look on my page (www.photosensitive.ca) in the About section for a link to an article on this.

    Jordan
     
  8. Kate Mocak

    Kate Mocak Member

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    Thank you both, Alessandro and Jordan.

    I won't be able to get an off-the-shelf colour slide developing kit easily (they only sell Foma's B&W reversal kit here) but I can mix one (providing I'll get all the chemicals). Your answer put me on the ground, though, and I'd like to thank you for 'warning' me.

    Maybe I should reconsider it and resort to cross-processing instead.
     
  9. rjr

    rjr Member

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    Kate,

    you could follow the instructions given by Jordan and Allessandro - omit the second development and use a bleach instead (Thiorea). Density is controlled by the first development (duration) and exposure, tone is influenced through temperature of the toning and the relation of both Thiorea and Sodiumhydroxide - it varies from deep chocolate brown to light yellow.

    And you may develop it in a simple bw reversal process - recipes are on the net as are some kits readily available from Foma, Kodak and few others.

    Testing is involved with both, the first will bring you some nice results with a strange toning to it, the second will give you quite neutral (slightly warm tone) bw. slides - the price you pay is quite coarse grain. The silver used in E6 film is of large grain, it´s size and shape doesn´t matter in the normal process as it is bleached and fixed and thus removed in total.

    If you are interested I could dig out my protocols from this summer.

    Jordan, could you go in detail what happened to your films, how they got destroyed? These films are made for rough circumstances - high speed transport, high temperatures, quick and strong changes of pH, long processing time. So they are pre-hardened by the manufacturer and _very_ tough.

    The Foma kit will give you decent results!
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Member

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    Roman, here is what I remember of my most recent experiences trying to develop colour slide film to give a B&W positive.

    Like Kate, I had come into a bunch of colour slide film for cheap and didn't particularly want or need a colour image. In experimenting in trying to get B&W positives from this stuff I first used the method of Mikhail Garous provided in the link Alessandro gave. I tried it with this Fuji MS100/1000 according to his directions and got very dark positives (deep-brown-and-white rather than black-and-white -- I used a reasonably alkaline thiourea toner bath). Unfortunately, the highlights were still quite 'dense' despite prolonged bleaching and no matter what I did, including overexposing by several stops, I could never get rid of the highlight 'veil'. My conclusion was that the thiourea toner had reacted somewhat with developed silver grains as well as with the left-over silver halide, meaning that even after bleaching I couldn't get clear highlights no matter how hard I tried.

    I never tried the tin chloride version but it may work better.

    In later experiments I tried developing a roll of colour slide film in a traditional B&W reversal process. Under conditions that gave pretty good results with Pan F Plus, the slide film totally disintegrated -- the emulsion came completely off the film base. I was as surprised as Roman is, since slide film is made to take a beating. It could be that more gentle bleaching would accomplish the bleach step without destroying the film.

    Preserving the order of Mikhail Garous' method (develop, tone, bleach) using B&W reversal bleach based on dichromate or permanganate does not work, as these bleaches also destroy the 'toned' positive. I found this out the hard way as well.

    Jordan
     
  11. Jordan

    Jordan Member

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    I should clarify my statement by mentioning that the E6 bleach-fix is based on an iron-ammonium EDTA complex, which is not as 'vigorous' a bleach as the B&W reversal chemistry. The silver sulfide 'positive' survives the E6 bleach-fix in Garous' method but does not survive a conventional B&W reversal bleach.
     
  12. rbarker

    rbarker Member

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    Considering the apparently marginal results others have seen, would it make sense to simply try to sell the color transparency film through a European eBay site to try to recover some of the original investment? Or, would it be possible to work a trade of some sort with your local photo dealer?
     
  13. modafoto

    modafoto Subscriber

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    That will work, but the contrast is on the low side, so I overexpose 1 stop and have the lab pulling in the development.

    Morten
     
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  15. rjr

    rjr Member

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    Nick,

    "Colour slide fillm are only colour slides if you develop it in E-6. If you crossprocess it in C-41 you get negatives. So why not crossprocess the C-41 B&W film into E-6? You'll end up with B&W slides I think."

    Yo will. But most C41-BWs are masked, the only one without the contrast masked I know of is Ilford´s Xp2s. This film tends to greening in E6 chemistry, you won´t get consistent and -worse- nice results.
     
  16. rjr

    rjr Member

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    Jordan,

    yes, fogged highlights are probably due to toned silver there - I believe it is the indirect kind of toning with thiorea. One could control it by adding a silver soluting substance to the first developer and thus clearing up the highlights a bit...

    It is certainly not the base that is fogged...

    If you care I could dig out my protocols and post the Thiorea/NaOH concentrations I have used - I got a few promising results with this effort.

    OTOT - it is troubling and rarely worth the effort. You can have good results with a plain off-the-shelf kit like the Foma Dia-Kit.

    Roman
     
  17. modafoto

    modafoto Subscriber

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    I use Kodak T400CN (the old C41-film from Kodak. Similar to XP-2 in the masking matter). The new one (made to be printed on colour paper has this masking to prevent colour tones on the finished B&W print).
    XP2 and T400CN are both C41-films made for printing the traditional way.

    Morten
     
  18. esearing

    esearing Subscriber

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    Shoot and process the color slides as normal. Then get a slide duplicator attachment for your camera and shoot b&w negs of the slides you like. A little more costly but less waste, and you will then have color and BW images to work with. Unless you just like to experiment. The range of tones on the slide film will be contrastier than your BW film so you should not have any issues. Underexpose the slides slightly and bracket exposure in the BW film for best results. Expose for highlights in the slides.

    OR, You can scan the color images and create B&W negatives/prints digitally. (ducks for cover).
     
  19. Jordan

    Jordan Member

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    Roman, I think you mean direct toning (without prior bleaching -- thiourea reacting directly with silver) rather than indirect (requires a pre-bleach stage, like sepia toning, so the toner reacts with AgX). Anyway, adding more silver solvent did not work -- I tried that as well and was using a very large amount of KSCN in a modified first dev (based on Kodak D-19) before I quit trying this method.

    Ultimately I have had better results doing a conventional B&W reversal process with Ilford Pan F Plus. If I find the Foma reversal kit and film available here in Toronto I will take them for a "spin" too.
     
  20. rjr

    rjr Member

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    Jordan,

    aehm... yes. ;-)
     
  21. Kate Mocak

    Kate Mocak Member

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    Roman,
    I'm not sure I understand what exactly you mean by the above; the instructions say:
    1. First Developer
    2. Washing
    3. Toner
    4. Washing
    5. Bleach-fix
    6. Final washing
    7. Stabiliser
    8. Drying

    Did you mean that I should skip the steps 3. and 4. and use thiourea in the step 5.? Didn't you mean 'toner' and mistype 'bleach'? (My understanding was that Toner in the step 3 replaces the second developer and the step 5 is done with hypo.)

    Yes, I am very interested. Thanks!
    Kate
     
  22. Kate Mocak

    Kate Mocak Member

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    Ralf,
    you're right, of course. Both options are feasible. But the recovery of the investment would be also marginal, if any at all, because the slides are well beyond their expiration date (though I'm sure they're OK because they've been untouched in the fridge). That's why I prefer to use them myself. Their B&W potential has higher value for me than what I'd get from selling them :smile:.
     
  23. rjr

    rjr Member

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    Kate,

    I wrote this in reference to the standard three bath E6 development - the order you have given is the correct one.
     
  24. Jordan

    Jordan Member

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    Kate, what exactly do you have, how old is it, and how has it been stored?
     
  25. Kate Mocak

    Kate Mocak Member

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    10 rolls, originally packed, of Fuji Sensia 100, expiration date March 2004, always stored in the fridge.
     
  26. rjr

    rjr Member

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    That will keep another 5 years. Just wait, perhaps you´ll find a use for it in the mean time.

    On the few occasions I shoot color I use a few rolls of Astia and Velvia I bought in 1998....