Community Suggestions

Discussion in 'Ethics and Philosophy' started by Aggie, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. Aggie

    Aggie Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Location:
    So. Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    In light of the fact we have today lost a few members over a certain thread, I would like to start a POSITIVE thread about building a community.

    Now this is just my opinion, but after all have had their say, maybe we can then come up with a list of guidelines for community behavior. I leave that to Sean to cull out what would work.

    I propose in the spirit of TOLERENCE that relgion unless it directly relates to a photograph be a non subject. We are a community of different ideologies, and theologoies. Bashing one or most, does no good but to show intolerance by us to the world.

    I propose that ALL disscussion about politics be banned unless it directly relates to a photograph, or a proposed measure that would seriously impact the WHOLE community. Ie to this last bit, a move world wide to ban rodinal would get to Morten and others, and would be of interest.

    I propose that if threads deter into dangerous ground that would be offensive to a segment of our community, that we take it upon ourselves to listen when those voices ask us to stop.I was sentA PM from one of the people who chose to leave. That person has asked in one of the threads for it to stop, and it was unheeded. We are supposed adults, lets act like one.

    I propose have a forum about what excites us as opposed to what makes us upset. We all remember our first film development. We all know the rush we have when a scene before us sings and we attempt to capture it. We all know the joy of seeing others who go through their firsts. Who are these people? Where are these people? Why not pick a person and do an interview, more than the featured member is. Get to the heart of that person, get to know who and what they are, so we can all begin to understand. We do not walk the same paths, lets enjoy the new discoveries of other paths.

    I open this up for more suggestions.
     
  2. mikepry

    mikepry Subscriber

    Messages:
    413
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Location:
    Salem, Wi (B
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Hey Aggie.....RIGHT ON!!

    P.S. No fuel/No fire
     
  3. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    17,940
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Honolulu, Ha
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Avoiding politics and religion in polite company? That's just manners.
     
  4. jim kirk jr.

    jim kirk jr. Member

    Messages:
    743
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Aggie,once again you are the voice of reason.I wasn't aware anyone left,I'll have to re-read some of the posts.I hope they change their minds as I enjoy hearing everyones point of view on things.
     
  5. Grace Cox

    Grace Cox Member

    Messages:
    124
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I agree with you Aggie whole heartedly!
     
  6. roteague

    roteague Member

    Messages:
    6,671
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Location:
    Kaneohe, Haw
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    And shows outgoing concern for the well being of others.
     
  7. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

    Messages:
    4,518
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Location:
    Ipswich, Mas
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    There is no way I could agree more. You've said it all.

    We here can invoke one requirement: Mature conduct - in the true sense of
    the word. I have no doubt of what is "flammable" ... and I won't do that.
    Some here apparently have not learned the lessons they should have in kindergarten.
     
  8. mark

    mark Member

    Messages:
    5,264
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2003
    Liberal Hippy Freak :D

    Sounds like a good idea but these subjects will always come up, in one form or another. Sean tried this and look what happened the moment the election ended. As artists and humans we are all passionate and get hot under the collar at times. We may agree now but there is no way that we can be certain that some if not all will hold true to their word as arguments heat up. I hate proposing this but I think the community has grown to a point where a a moderator would be neccesary. Some, including myself, at times, have crossed the line. Sean is only one person and this is not his life, or livelyhood. He also has to sleep while some of these arguments rage.

    I know that Jorge was a moderator at one point but left because it got personal. If there was some way for this person or people to be annonymous and hold an account seperate from the one they use on a regular basis then these attacks may not be a problem. I know there was some bad blood between some folks for a while.

    Just a thought
     
  9. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

    Messages:
    4,532
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    What did I miss? who left?.....now, lets not all get worked up and make a storm in a glass of water. Sometimes humor does not translate well in this forums, but I dont know that is better that we all become a community of stepford wives just praising each other.

    I am catholic and I did not take offense about some of the comments made, if the comments were directed to me, and I did not take offense, why should anybody else?

    I dont know, I just dont see the point to start making rules about what we can talk or not talk about.
     
  10. mark

    mark Member

    Messages:
    5,264
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2003
    I agree, but there comes a time when folks start spouting the time honored "you've made my ignore list." and other such phrases. These happen, most often during non-photo topics. I personally do want to see topics banned either. Refereed maybe but not banned.
     
  11. Thomassauerwein

    Thomassauerwein Member

    Messages:
    1,627
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2003
    Location:
    Southern Cal
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    AMEN!
     
  12. johnnywalker

    johnnywalker Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,260
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Location:
    British Colu
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I agree with Jorge. I don't know what threads offend some people, but someone would have to have a pretty thin skin to be offended by any of the posts I've seen (with a couple of exceptions, which were so outrageous no one should have taken it seriously).
    Some of the threads drift, usually into pretty humourous areas, and I would not like that to stop.


     
  13. BWGirl

    BWGirl Member

    Messages:
    3,049
    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Location:
    Wisconsin, U
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I agree that we shold treat each other with respect, but I also agree that we should be able to joke with each other too. I do not see these two things as mutually exclusive.
    I feel sad that someone was so offended that they left the forum...I wonder that they contined to read a thread that so hurt them... I am unsure why a person would do that. I can see reading a post by someone you maybe thought you knew and seeing them make statements that are hurtful...I can see how that would upset you and maybe make you want to stay away for a while... but why wouldn't you PM that person and just tell them?
    I think there is a need for tolerance...but people cannot express tolerance and support for differing opinions if those opinions cannot be expressed. I am not crazy abot some of the political threads or others that end up in shouting matches, but when things degrade to that point, I do not read the thread.

    I think for a community of so many diverse people to work, we must be willing to police ourselves without creating a 'nanny state'. We must learn self control as we continue to learn about each other. If we maintain good manners while voicing our opinions and show respect for each other we should be able to continue to grow as a community... there's a lot to be said for "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"... regardless of your religious beliefs! :wink:

    So how about that Rodinal!!! :D
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. TPPhotog

    TPPhotog Member

    Messages:
    3,042
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Seconded or is that thirded!
     
  16. jovo

    jovo Membership Council Council

    Messages:
    4,124
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2004
    Location:
    Jacksonville
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It's interesting that on the very day Aggie suggests the above, there's a purely photographic thread that Grace Cox authored that could be considered offensive, arrogant and provocative. But, in my opinion at least, it isn't! It's a vehemently held opinion. It may offend, but it's just her view which which others disagree. Were someone to decide to leave because their chosen photographic subject and/or style was belittled, it would seem silly.

    As much as I appreciate your intentions, Aggie, I completely disagree that, in the interests of community, anything at all must be off limits. If someone writes something offensive, then the collective disapproval of the community should, as it does in real life, or at least used to, be adequate to deal with the offending member. I don't like even the idea of the 'ignore' list, but I certainly do like the idea of ignoring the offensive.

    Real communities are beautiful, and ugly, well scrubbed and grubby, each in their turn. What makes them work isn't what they're not allowed to be, but what they have in common, including concerned regard for each other. I would much prefer to see us model the best behavior we can rather than be told where we cannot go. There will always be those who choose their own disruptive path, but it shouldn't phase the rest if there really is a community at the heart of things in the first place. Opprobrium works! Censorship doesn't!
     
  17. Eric Rose

    Eric Rose Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,415
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Location:
    Calgary AB,
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Fess up Aggie, who left? You made a statement based on something you put forth as fact. Lets get to the bottom of this and review the situation as it unravelled.

    Maybe there are specific lessons to be learned from these incidence.
     
  18. bmac

    bmac Member

    Messages:
    2,156
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Sean left, are you happy! :tongue:
     
  19. TPPhotog

    TPPhotog Member

    Messages:
    3,042
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    No I need Sean to give me a "ignore list for my ignore list" so I can ignore Jorge before he gets one to ignore me :D
     
  20. Andy K

    Andy K Member

    Messages:
    9,422
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2004
    Location:
    Sunny Southe
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Someone left? Because of that theo/politic thread? But there was nothing offensive in that? Was there? :surprised: A few differing viewpoints perhaps but nothing much else.

    I love photography, I have done for thirty years, but I would be hard pushed to chat all the time about nothing but photography.

    The thing is, people are people, and sooner or later people will discuss whatever they feel like discussing. In the lounge that is fair enough.
     
  21. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

    Messages:
    6,242
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    I recalled this post by Michael Mutmansky almost a year ago when several members who have voiced there opinions on this thread were involved in an altercation. I find it interesting how things come back around. By the way, I did and continue to support what Michael said at that time.

    Donald L. Miller
    Wichita, Kansas

    02-22-2004, 12:58 PM
    Michael Mutmansky


    Member
    Join Date: Sep 2002
    Location: State College, PA
    Shooter: ULarge Format
    Posts: 88


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have been thinking about some of the recent events that APUG has suffered through, and I started to wonder what could be done to reduce some of the conflicts that arise, and also help build a real community.

    To that end, I have one proposal that I think should be taken into serious consideration. Strongly encourage each member to become a public member of the forum.

    By this I mean that the majority of the people in the registration list do not have any information about themselves, and at least half do not use any form of identification that is 'real'. This permits people to hide behind a level of anonymity that is not really present in any other aspect of their lives.

    While every person in the world has a name that they go by in their local community and for the sake of governmental purposes, I don't see that there is much reason to not continue to use this given name as part of an online identity. I use my full name, and I also feel that I have nothing to hide, and am not ashamed by any of the postings I have made on this forum, or on any other, as I use my full name on every forum I am involved in.

    I understand that some people may be concerned about stalkers or other issues, so I can understand that full names may not be for everyone. However, look through the member list and you will find that there are a number of people who have a similar approach to mine, and I think that APUG is better for it.

    Also, providing a bit more information about the member's location and other information is very useful in discussions. It is too easy to forget that a member may be on the other side of the world, and a recommendation to 'get it from B&H' or whatever is useless to many people.

    One thing that defines a 'community' in my mind is that the members have a somewhat similar purpose, and have a somewhat similar background or understanding. Without these two items, a true community cannot be established. The interest in analogue photography is the common purpose, but there is a significant lack of common background or understanding within APUG.

    This is made worse by the fact that traditional communities were defined by the common experiences of a close geographical organization, and often social standing, ethnicity, wealth, and politics among others. APUG is not limited in any of these manners, and so it must overcome the lack of common thread among its members, and find ways to build this understanding that creates a community.

    The interest in analogue photography cannot be both the purpose and the background, because there are too many other facets in people's lives (like ego or politics, for example) that will result in the failure of a community to develop. Members that are mostly anonymous are doing nothing to develop the common background, and will not truly be a part of a 'community'.

    This, I think is the greatest challenge, and the greatest failing of most internet-based groups, and is also part of the reason that horrific flame wars can break out. Anyone who has experienced some of the wars on Photo.net in the past knows what I mean. Once one begins, even if it is based on a legitimate debate between members, trolls or other anonymous members jump into the fray, and the whole place spirals out of control.

    Whether this becomes a policy of APUG or not is something for Sean and other to debate away over. However, I encourage every member to become a more public participant. Put more information in your background page, use your 'real' name for posts, and develop an online persona that mirrors your identity as a member of the community that you live in the physical world.


    Sincerely,


    Michael Mutmansky
     
  22. Michael Mutmansky

    Michael Mutmansky Member

    Messages:
    345
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Sacramento
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Don,

    Darn, I'm surprised you remembered that...

    I took a 6 month leave of absence from APUG due to uncharitable and uncivil posts by a member directed toward me from waaay out in left field. Interestingly, the same member is often involved in many of these 'debates' on APUG. I still don't post (or rather rarely post) in any groups other than the Large Format and Alternative Process groups for reasons related to this. For some reason I actually looked at this thread, because I normally completely ignore these types of discussions due to the inherently loaded nature of them.

    Here's my proposal to eliminate all the absolute crap that has the effect of tearing down the community:

    ACTIVELY ELIMINATE ALL OFF-TOPIC POSTS.

    Why? Simple, the OT posts and chatter are bandwidth that are irrelevant to APUG as a photography community. If people want to spend APUG's bandwidth chatting, and if Sean is OK with that, well, that's fine, but I don't consider those posts to be relevant to the primary directive of APUG, and would be pleased to see all the chatter and OT posts removed so we can stay on-topic.

    Also, RESTRAINT is needed. I don't mean holding back on a troll, although restraint is required there, too. I mean restrain from posting to a thread unless there is a legitimate and relevant thought or fact that you can contribute. There is no reason to be (once again) adding chatter to a discussion. It denigrates the level of the discussion, and this hurts the community.

    That's it. I'll go back to posting in areas where I can contribute something worthwhile.


    ---Michael
     
  23. bmac

    bmac Member

    Messages:
    2,156
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Since we're quoting from that oh so fun thread, I'll repost my comment here too.

    Sinking ship? A little dramatic don't you think? As far as I'm concerned, there is a strong community here on APUG. It's not the same community as Tuan's site, Photonet, etc, and that is a good thing. Its one of the many things that make APUG special& different.

    I don't believe that any of the people involved in the recent turbulence were hiding behind aliases. And don't think that is would have made a difference if in fact they were.

    Speaking for myself, and those who know me personally can attest to this, in the 1000+ posts, 100's of PMs and emails, I have not said one word that I wouldn't say to someone sitting across the table from me.

    Sean has created a great thing here, he has given the power to moderate to the users. Lets not try to change everything over a rough couple of days.

    Now everyone, back to photography!

    Brian



    Now everyone, back to photography!
    Brian aka bmac aka grumpy aka... you get the point...
     
  24. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

    Messages:
    4,532
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Too late I am ignoring you and using your jug of Rodinal........so there! :tongue:
     
  25. TPPhotog

    TPPhotog Member

    Messages:
    3,042
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Awwwwww Jorge NOOOOOOO don't take the Rodinal away !!!!!!!!!!!!! Sob :sad:
     
  26. roteague

    roteague Member

    Messages:
    6,671
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Location:
    Kaneohe, Haw
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    I agree, some of the posts are getting quite personal. However, I think everyone needs to realize that this past election was very ugly and bitter, and a lot of people are upset and frustrated at the results, and may say things that they later regret. It's best not to harbor resentment about remarks made in the "heat of the moment." We will all get over this.

    Let's get back to photography!!!