Confusing Instructions.

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by BMbikerider, Oct 26, 2012.

  1. BMbikerider

    BMbikerider Member

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    I have just had a new 1ltr Tetenal E6 kit delivered and I am somewhat confused by the instructions. They seem to contradict each other at opposite ends of the instruction pages. The last lot of E6 I used was also Tetenal and the instructions booklet from that lot shows they are different. Are they covering themselves just in case something goes wrong?

    In the new booklet The instructions are shown on page 8 for 'Rotary Discard' which I always use.They give the pre heat time as 5 mins and the 1st development time as 6mins 15 secs, which is the same as in the older booklet. As are the remaining steps shown on page 8.

    However in the section Notes on processing steps right at the bottom it suggests to me that the agitation should be constant for the 1st 15 seconds, then once every 15 seconds. That to me doesn't sound at all like rotary processing but they don't say so. Then on page 9 there is a bit about stabilising and below that a line which reads :-" For Rotary processing equipment, pre heat to 39C/102F and first development time +7 mins"

    Has something been lost in the translation or am I simply being a little bit slow? What time should the 1st development be 6'.15" or 7 Mins and is it rotary or inversion agitation?

    Below that is a section about general instructions and the 2nd paragraph contains something I have never come across before, about plastics absorbing the 2nd developer and should not be used!!! I only know of rotary processors that use a plastic tank and the measures are plastic so what should be done? A scan of the two pages is attached.
     

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  2. Simonh82

    Simonh82 Member

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    I can't help with the specific question but I have emailed Tetenal's customer/tech support and got a useful response a few days later. The English was a little shaky but I got the gist.
     
  3. WayneStevenson

    WayneStevenson Member

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    Rotary is always constant agitation.
     
  4. BMbikerider

    BMbikerider Member

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    That would seem obvious, but they don't make it clear. they give 2 processing times for the 1st development 6.15 mins/secs and another for 7 mins using rotary method and then refer to agitation at the start which is clearly inversion agitation. They are not very good. I could use the old set of instructions which ar clear precise and easily understood, but I don't know if they have changed the formula also they have included sections in the new instructions about contamination of plastic tanks by the colour developer, this was not there before.
     
  5. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    I can only sympathise. I have never heard of an inversion system requiring less time nor of plastic tanks giving contamination. Given how much Jobo tanks are used for colour work there may be a lawsuit from Jobo on its way as we speak :D

    Unless Tetenal address these issues which might simply be careless translation or lazy text composition then assuming there are alternatives to Tetenal E6 chems it might find its sales dropping off

    In the U.K. there are several retailers who are switched on such as Ag Photographic, Silverprint, Process Supplies, Firstcall and RKPhotographic. Raise it with one of them which supplies the kit.

    pentaxuser
     
  6. swchris

    swchris Subscriber

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    I can confirm that the translation is not the problem. The German instructions have the same inconsistencies.
     
  7. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Seemingly when giving the manuals a new lay-out they messed things up.
     
  8. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Certainly that is what my instinct said. Still it seems incredible that the instructions weren't proof read by at least one other person after the person whom, it appears, put the text together badly. Hopefully the mistakes have been pointed out to Tetenal and new instructions are in the latest kits

    pentaxuser
     
  9. AgX

    AgX Member

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    NO!


    The English text has as header:

    Processing - Rotary Discard


    The German text:

    Processing - Inverting- and Rotary-processing

    Thus with that header in mind the reference to different dynamics of inversion makes sense!

    The French, Spanish, Italian, Dutch and Danish versions all follow the German one.
    Obviously the error (omission) is only in the English translation.



    Not Likely: the manual with the erroneous English text is still at their website.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2012
  10. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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  11. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Agitation

    As the error on the agitation issue consists of omitting only one word, "Inverting", I thought the advice would be clear.
    My advice is to read the headline of the processing part of the manual as it was written in German.

    Thus the following text in the manual is aimed at both, inverting and roating processing. Read it as:

    -) In case of inverting processing to invert (turn upside down the tank) for the FD/CD/BL steps continuously for the first 15sec, then invert just once every 15sec

    -) in case of rotating processing: forget about the sentence above...
     
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  12. WayneStevenson

    WayneStevenson Member

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    OK. Forgive me if I am confused. So are you asking what the proper agitation method is for rotary processing?

    It isn't listed in the notes because rotary processing doesn't require user input. Just an increase of time and temperature. Which are part of the same notes that continue on page 9.
     
  13. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Wayne, yes, you got it wrong: I'm not asking about any agitation method. It was the OP.


    Temperature and time

    And Tetenal does not advise to rise the processing temperature, but to pre-heat at 39°C.
    Which would mean to heat it seperately and then at the start of processing insert it into the 38°C machine.
    Which does not make sense (to me). Especially as in the C-41 manual they advise to pre-heat at 38°, which just means rotating the tank for some minutes "idle" before starting the process. And in the C-41 manual there is no reference to inverting processing.

    That 39°C and the prolonged time for rotating in the E-6 manual would rather make sense for inverting the tank outside a warming bath: using higher process temp. and longer time to counteract cooling of the drum.

    As I said they made a mess out of that manual.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2012
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  15. Roger Cole

    Roger Cole Member

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    That still doesn't clear up the different development times then.
     
  16. BMbikerider

    BMbikerider Member

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    Thank goodness for the answers that agree with me - at least I am now sure I am not loosing my marbles!

    However since posting last time I have done a bit of research and come up with a website giving the processing time recommended for the Tetenal chemicals by JOBO themselves. They are very similar, but not identical, but a lot clearer.

    Pre warming is the same. 1st development is 6.5 mins with the rotary speed set on the highest setting and the rest of the process is the same, but they say that for all FUJI films ONLY the 1st development should be 7.5 mins. I will speak to the importers tomorrow and get this sorted out once and for all.

    This raises another question about the extended FUJI times. The two films I have waiting to be processed now are the last ones I have with the Sensia name. The remainder of my stock, is the reincarnated Agfa Precisia which is actually made in Japan (so the box claims). As I don't know of any other film manufacturer in Japan other than Fuji, is this reincarnated film actually FUJI in disguise, or the original Agfa film made to the Agfa recipe over there?.
     
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  17. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Agfaphoto Precisa: In general Agfaphoto has been using films of other manufacturers to get their portfolio of films complete, but still using Agfa tradenames for those films. They even esxchanged suppliers.
    So far I have found some Agfaphoto datasheets being just copies of data of known Ferrania and Fuji films.

    Agfa still manufactures a reversal film, but to my knowledge that is not offered by AgfaPhoto.


    BMbikerider:
    Your reply even confused me more, especially on those rotation speed settings. Thus the Tetenal manual above is even more questionable.
     
  18. BMbikerider

    BMbikerider Member

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    The problem continues! I have had a long almost meaningless conversation with the Tetenal Company in UK who at first did not appear to want to discuss the problem and it wasn't until I mentioned that I would get in touch with the parent company in Germany and complain, that someone actually phoned back and spoke to me. Basically,They could not explain the difference between the two temperatures mentioned (38 +39 degrees C) and the different times. They actually stated the longer times were due to the higher temperatures. That is a stupid uninformed remark! Nor could they explain why, what appears to be inversion agitation is included in the ones for rotary agitation without giving an adequate explanation

    The guy supposedly from the technical department actually suggested that I carry out tests myself to find out what is the correct times to use.... Errrrr ....... no... they are supposed to do that before they market the item!

    They are now getting in touch with Tetenal in Germany to get the correct answer.

    I will never use Tetenal again if this is their degree of customer support.
     
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  19. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    Just get some Arista Rapid E-6 haha

    They have clear instructions, and even a calculation for extending the chemical for re-use multiple times, it works great, my fuji Velvia is just as bright as ever, 3 step system, simple and it works.


    ~Stone

    The Important Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  20. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    Oh, I have found pushing E-6 2 stops in Arista Rapid E-6 chemical causes the film to lose a significant amount if color, but I haven't tried that with other E-6 chemical so it may be normal, or the film may have been bad, it was garage sale film. Still developed the exposure correctly though, and that was on a 7th re-use.


    ~Stone

    The Important Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  21. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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  22. AgX

    AgX Member

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    At least this problem is solved, as I explained above, hinting at the omission of the word "inverting" in the English section.
    The other issues of course are not solved...
     
  23. BMbikerider

    BMbikerider Member

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    I got fed up with waiting for a reply from Tetenal so I made a decision and went ahead using the JOBO timings which seemed to be the most straight forward, but with fingers crossed! Well they are perfect even if I say so myself. 2 lots of transparencies hanging up to dry. 1 x Fuji Sensia and 1 x CR200 which I believe is a re-hash of an Agfa film, but made in Belgium.

    I modified the timings slightly, from the JOBO recommendations. I Washed between stages longer than the JOBO = 5 x 30 second instead of 4. and colour developed for 6 mins instead of 4. Otherwise it was as per the JOBO times Both films were as good as I have ever done in the past. That is what I will use from now on.

    The CR200 is on an Estar base just like the Technical Pan film from Kodak used to be. (I think that's what it is called.) You cannot tear or snap it so it has to be cut. Nice clean natural colours and not OTT with saturation and seemingly quite a bit of latitude.

    This film is really cheap in UK with 2 cassettes for £7. I will be using it again.
     
  24. AgX

    AgX Member

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    This film from Agfa has the same emulsion as a late Agfa consumer reversal film but is coated on PET base for aerial camera use. Rebranded available as type 135 conversion.
     
  25. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    So no issue with plastic tanks either, I presume? Tetenal's whole approach is liable to produce the same outcome for its business that Gerald Ratner's speech at the Conservative Party Conference did way back in I think Maggie Thatch's days when he described how he could sell his stuff for bargain prices because it was "tat"

    pentaxuser
     
  26. BMbikerider

    BMbikerider Member

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    pentaxuser. No problem with the tanks as you surmised. I think these 'warnings' are given out as a possible defence against being sued if things go wrong. But the use of 'plastic is so vague and no plastic is specifically highlighted that use as a defence would not really be adequate. I have no proof of course but you get used to reading between the lines in this day and age.
     
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