Continuous agitation

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by irishwoodpecker, May 24, 2012.

  1. irishwoodpecker

    irishwoodpecker Member

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    Hi

    I have read that Rodinal does not take kindly to continuous agitation (e.g.Jobo DuoLab).

    If this is so, does anyone have any suggestions for a good B&W developer that works well at 24C and continuous agitation.

    Regards
     
  2. Rick A

    Rick A Subscriber

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    Pyrocat-HD.
     
  3. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser Advertiser

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    I haven't heard that Rodinal has any particular problem with Jobos. It has a minor cult following of 'diluted standists' - which may have lead to an inadvertent rumor that it can't be rolled. But the real question is "Have you had any problems?"

    On the Pyro side, my experience has been that Jobo's with sheet film & spiral reels don't get along well with Pyro. Pyro is sensitive to agitation turbulence and there is quite a build up of density at the leading/trailing edges of the film. Rollo Pyro - which has a low rate of aerial oxidation - may be the best bet.

    Working very well in Jobos of all sorts are D-76 (ID-11), HC-110 (forgot the Ilford equiv.) and Microdol-X (Perceptol(?)). But they are so unsexy, no cult following at all.
     
  4. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    T-Max or, if you prefer a replenishment regime, T-Max RS.
     
  5. Mainecoonmaniac

    Mainecoonmaniac Subscriber

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    I use Xtol and HC-110 in a Beseler Drum with constant agitation and it works well. My experience with PMK Pyro make me think that constant agitation will work also.
     
  6. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    Agree with Nicholas and MattKing. Staining developers can be problematic. With Pyro, Rollo Pyro is reputed to work ok in a Jobo. With Catechol, Pyrocat MC is supposed to work well. Other than that, most standard general purpose solvent developers will work fine. If you're going to use TMax developer in a Jobo make sure you use TMax RS.
     
  7. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    exactly ...
    i wouldn't use tmax developer with sheet film,
    you will get dichroic fog, if you have to use tmax for your sheet film
    use tmax RS. it won't give you dichroic fog.

    good luck !
    john
     
  8. wildbill

    wildbill Member

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    you've probably been told to avoid rodinal because it exhausts quicker than other developers when used under constant agitation. Use two batches instead, one for the first 1/2 of development, one for the 2nd half.
     
  9. MDR

    MDR Member

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    You can use Rodinal with continuous agitation, you'll just loose a bit of acutance which is the main reason for using Rodinal. 24°C in Rodinal = Grain. Pyrocat P and PC were designed for rotary development. Jay de Fehr's 510-pyro can be used as well.

    Good Luck
    Dominik
     
  10. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

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    Why do you want to use continuous agitation?
     
  11. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I have been processing film in Pyro in a Jobo for over 15 years with no problem.. I cannot tell you how many runs but enough to say we have gone through over 10 lift arms with our various units.
     
  12. irishwoodpecker

    irishwoodpecker Member

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    I am very limited on space and intend to use my Jobo DuoLab.
     
  13. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

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    Forgive my ignorance, but what has limited space got to do with continuous agitation?
     
  14. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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    Dear irishwoodpecker,

    Rodinal works just fine in my Jobo.

    Neal Wydra
     
  15. Leigh B

    Leigh B Member

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    Rodinal will not exhaust under any conditions when used at the proper concentration: minimum 10ml of concentrate per 80 square inches of film (1 roll 35mm etc).

    Where did that come from? What constitutes a "batch"? And what does "the first 1/2 of development" mean?

    With continuous agitation you will not get any compensating effect, but that's true of all developers.

    Rodinal has been my main developer for over 50 years, and I've never encountered a problem with it when used per the directions.

    Of course there are always folks who think they know more than the manufacturer.

    - Leigh
     
  16. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    I wonder where the rumor of stains not working with continious atigation started? I've run a lot of 120mm film in 510 Pyro on a Unicolor base with no issues.
     
  17. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    hi cliveh:

    the OP is using a rotary processor, so you put the film in ( rolls or sheets )
    and it turns and reverses and turns and reverses until the development is done.
    so what this means is the OP needs to use a developer that works with rotary systems.

    from what they say, its a great way to get consistent processing every time.

    john
     
  18. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    It is not a rumour. It is relevant to the use of older formulas. Some modern staining formulas work well, but others might not. Testing is required. Streaking due to aerial oxidation can be a problem.
     
  19. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser Advertiser

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    I wasn't saying staining developers don't work in a Jobo.

    What I, and others, have noticed is that (1) sheet film, (2) in spiral reels, (3) in a Jobo, (4) and with pyro/catachol developers develops more at the edges than in the middle - more so than with plain-ole D-76 & Co.. If you aren't doing (1), (2), (3) and (4) then this bit of anecdote is of no interest or use.

    Also Pyro developers that oxidize quickly - ABC Pyro comes to mind - will develop terrific general (non-image) staining due to aerial oxidation caused by the constant minor turbulence [normally a very good thing] that goes on inside a spinning Jobo drum. That is the reason for Rollo Pyro with its addition of Ascorbic acid as both an anti-oxidant and a developing accelerator - Rollo develops in about 1/2 the time of traditional pyro formulations, 1/2 the time = 1/2 the general stain [or that is the theory].

    PMK and P'Cat are also said to work well in a Jobo.
     
  20. Photocrack

    Photocrack Member

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    For in your Duolab in rotary development:

    + The mentioned Pyro developers
    + CG-512 1+4 (always on 24C)
    + Xtol/Fomadon Excel W27 1+1 - 1+3
    + HC-110 dil H
    + D74 1+15 - 1+19.

    - Rodinal in rotary will give much less acutance then inverse processing. Even the biggest problem is 24C which gives a lot of extra grain. So certainly not the first choice.
     
  21. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I can vouch that Hutchings PMK has no issues in a Jobo, I have no experience with other Pyro Formulas..
    Sandy King has mentioned to me that his formula works well in a Jobo , but I have never tried it.

     
  22. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    One trick that we learned very early with PMK in a Jobo was to split the developement into two baths of equal time.
    It also should be noted that we use 1 liter baths for all our chems so some may find this too expensive.
     
  23. Michael R 1974

    Michael R 1974 Subscriber

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    Hi Bob - yes King's Catechol formulas are reportedly fine for rotary/continous agitation. I can vouch first hand for PMK working because I've tried it (it's in The Book of Pyro too). I believe the split development technique you mention is also recommended in his book. It is a good way to use dilute developers (such as PMK) in a Jobo since depending on your machine and tank you may or may not be able to use enough solution volume. I'm not a Jobo user myself but my understanding is the Jobo systems were really designed for minimal solution volumes.

    Nicholas is correct. Further to my previous post, most "modern" staining formulations (like PMK, Wimberley and Pyrocat) contain an additional developing agent and are less sensitive to aerial oxidation problems. However the more traditional formulas containing only Pyro (or Catechol) as a developing agent, that are designed to induce imagewise stain (ie contain minimal preservative) won't work in a Jobo. ABC would be an example. It barely works in trays. Note you can make these developers more stable by increasing the amount of preservative - but then you get less imagewise stain. One of the key attributes of Pyro developers such as PMK is that through careful balancing, imagewise stain is maximized while at the same time it is relatively stable. Rollo Pyro is apparently more of a compromise developer. It was designed to work with rotary processing but produces significantly less imagewise stain than PMK or Wimberly.