Corona treatment system works!

Discussion in 'Silver Gelatin Based Emulsion Making & Coating' started by hrst, Nov 8, 2010.

  1. hrst

    hrst Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StgbV766dqQ :cool: :munch: :whistling:

    As you can see, it works! --- finally!

    I'll publish instructions to make one later, however this project needs some understanding of electronics and is somewhat dangerous :w00t:
     
  2. Jerevan

    Jerevan Subscriber

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    Yeah, the Super Killing Machine HRST 2001 PRO is working! :D It looks seriously dangerous, like sticking a screwdriver into an TV set or something.

    Great stuff. :smile:
     
  3. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    I liked the resulted film and the clean construction of the electronics. I am interested in CW and you must see how people work as extremelly dirty , terrible electronics and mors with 1 watt from Alaska to England.
    After seeing this , I decided to build this software radio stuff.

    Yes , really great and fast.
     
  4. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    hrst ,

    If you make a tutorial for manhattan construction for your electronics , people would have fun the construction.

    Umut
     
  5. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Congratulations.

    I am interested in the voltage and amperage used as well as any other details you might wish to share.

    Thanks.

    Be careful.

    PE
     
  6. dehk

    dehk Member

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    That, is awesome.
     
  7. hrst

    hrst Member

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    Mains voltage (230 VAC) is rectified and filtered with capacitor to 320 VDC, which is then chopped to 26 kHz square wave by using a H bridge of four MOSFETs, which is fed to a self-made transformer with 60 turns in primary winding and 600 turns in secondary winding. Current-limiting resistor is in series with primary winding, limiting it to about 2 A in case of accidental arcing.

    The result seems to be around 4.8 kV(rms), 26 kHz, and can give 200 mA of current with the series resistor, or more if it's removed. Of course using such a small electrode, it won't take this much current, but it's good to have some reserve in the power supply. In fact, I think this could supply a kilowatt or more...

    Electrode is just an aluminium tube, with PVC tape in both ends to create the air gap of about 1 mm in the middle. The ground plate should be covered with some dielectric that prevents arcing if you want to treat the edges, too.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2010
  8. Anon Ymous

    Anon Ymous Member

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    Ah, that's the huge black cylindical thing eh?
     
  9. hrst

    hrst Member

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    Yeah. 450V 1000 µF IIRC. Smaller (around 300 µF) would do but had those lying around at the club...
     
  10. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Very nice. I'm looking forward to seeing some coatings made on the surface you create. Remember that this can cause fog if it is too "heavy" and stripping of the emulsion if it is too "weak".

    PE
     
  11. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser

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    Very nicely done.

    A cheap source of high voltage, though it is at line frequency (or DC, if you wish), is the transformer, rectifier and capacitor from an old microwave oven. With a pair of voltage doublers made from more microwave rectifiers and capacitors it is possible to get 8kV at pretty hefty power levels.
     
  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Do a patent search for "corona" and "kodak" and you will find about 1700 hits with extensive descriptions and a list of the problems that must be solved such as uneven corona and ozone removal. The wear of the discharge system and type of "wire" used is also important. Just some thoughts you may want to look into. I don't want to discourage you, just inform you of the mass of data out there and the lists of potential problems.

    Again, best wishes and it was a job well done! Congratulations.

    PE
     
  13. hrst

    hrst Member

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    I tried microwave oven transformer first as a transformer, but it went up only to 1 kHz (probably because of core material selected -- it's normally used at 50...60 Hz), which would be quite a low frequency for efficient corona treatment. That's why I had to make my own with ferrite core and double, layered windings.

    CRT TV Flyback transformers would go to high frequencies, but they have the rectifying diode incorporated that cannot be removed. What I need is AC. All my DC experiments, up to 30 kV, failed and the commercial unit we measured gives AC.

    I think that uneveness is easily addressed by doing many passes "just in case", which is not possible or easy in fast, continuous web machinery. Ozone indeed does smell, but for small scale treatment probably does not matter.
     
  14. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    With the high power units at EK, I could smell the ozone even with an efficient exhaust. The RF generated would cause a lot of noise if anyone had a radio in their lab. The unevenness could be eliminated by having more than one discharge unit. At EK we used a wire IIRC. In fact, one patent refers to renewable wire corona discharge units with the wire coming off a spool slowly as it is wearing away due to use. The metal being discharged onto the film due to this wear can be a problem.

    PE
     
  15. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Instead of several passes of the material one can employ several electrodes on a rotating head with the material passing in a longitudinal path.
     
  16. hrst

    hrst Member

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    Old patents I read almost a year ago were using, for example, seven electrodes in a circle, the web passed them all. This of course allows higher speed for web than one electrode, and increases evenness. I can well imagine how big problem ozone is on bigger units, as it smells quite strongly even when treating just one 21x30 cm sheet so that it is completely treated.

    Some patents talk of using a metal net instead of single wire, for larger surface area and many points for discharge.

    Luckily, I find currently no need to make any big unit that would use rollers to move a long web, or do a quick job with single pass. This sheet version with manual electrode is just fine to treat, say, up to 1 meter long sheets.

    I think that, from the possible pitfalls mentioned, the metal from electrode and possible fogging in case of overtreatment may be the ones I should be aware of.

    I thank you PE for pointing out any possible problems; by no way I take that as any kind of discouragement! I'm very happy about the positive response I get from all of you, and all the ideas I get.

    Actually, I'm currently winding a new transformer; I got the previous one to arc out, but that was all due to my very clumsy handling that caused some of the insulation came off very badly. Winding a decent HV transformer is possible, but quite difficult and tedious, especially if you want it to be completely corona-free to last for years. Mine is not, and corona discharges happening inside can shorten the life, but in my very intermittent usage this is not a problem.
     
  17. Photo Engineer

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    Well, having wound a few myself, I know how cranky a home made transformer can be! :wink:

    As for corona treatment, we would never use support beyond about 24 hours corona treatment. It dissipates.

    Very best wishes and if you get to a stumbling block let me know.

    PE
     
  18. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Are corona discharge and electron bombardment the same thing? Can anyone give some kind of an explanation for how this can make raw PET/Melinex accepting of coatings... cough cough, for the electronically lay person?

    Also, if this treatment dissipates after 24 hours, how does Photo Formulary's subbed melinex store? Was another subbing layer applied at the time of treatment?

    This thread is a continuation of this thread, btw.

    I'm just thinking ahead to the day when PF's stock runs out.

    Hrst, you say this works of course, so in other words a sheet of PET without this treatment will repel an emulsion, so how good is adherence after running it through this machine?
     
  19. E. von Hoegh

    E. von Hoegh Member

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    As well as flyback transformers, auto ignition coils are another source of high frequency/high ratio transformers. Microwave oven transformers won't handle high frequency, but will deliver lethal currents.
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Corona Discharge = Electron Bombardment! They are identical.

    The Melinex from the Formulary has been bombarded at the plant and then a subbing layer is applied that will adhere to both the Estar support (Melinex) and to the overlying coating whatever it may be, as long as it is water based.

    There you have it.

    PE
     
  21. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Thanks Ron. Ok, and basically we don't know what DuPont used to coat Melinex 583, do we?

    So corona dischrage is relatively useless unless you plan to coat immediately, or apply an intermediate subbing layer. Interesting...
     
  22. Photo Engineer

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    Jim and I have searched for possible subbing materials and I have notes on it here somewhere. We could not pin it down.

    PE
     
  23. kb3lms

    kb3lms Subscriber

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    Just thinking about this a little today, is there anything sold by the company on this link that would be useful as a power source for corona treatment:

    http://www.amazing1.com/hv-hf-power-supplies.htmhttp://

    I was looking at the "Plasma, Gas Discharge, and Jacob's Ladder Power Supplies" about halfway down the page, esp the "UL Approved XL1035"

    -- Jason