Cross Processed Negs + Enlarging In Color Help

Discussion in 'Enlarging' started by fiducio, May 10, 2009.

  1. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    So, I'm pretty new at this whole darkroom thing. And young too. A few days ago was my first time in a color darkroom, and I was getting the hang of it. I made tons of prints and contact prints which were all a breeze.

    So I decided I'd try my cross processed negs that I had brought with me. Without thinking too much, just to see how it'd turn out, I put all the dials to zero. And made a contact print. It was very very red and yellow, when it should have been very green because my negs were a yellow to ornage color.

    So, people with more experience: maskless negs, how should they be printed? :[
     
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  2. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    Also, I know that since the normal c41 negs have the orange mask, does that mean that the color paper has a sensitivity to those colors to make it normal colors?
    And, let's say if I dial out magenta and yellow completely, and put in a B&W negative, how would it turn out?
     
  3. Bob-D659

    Bob-D659 Member

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    Set your filters to zero, try it and find out. :smile: Don't forget to compensate for the needed decrease in exposure time.
     
  4. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    I did do that...

    C=0,M=0,Y=0 made yellow prints...
    when adding cyan, it made it even more yellow...
     
  5. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    Yes the paper expects a mask.

    How they should be printed is up to you. It's not like they will look "normal" so you've got the creative control.
     
  6. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    0M/0Y is always an *extremely* warm print that is nowhere close to "neutral". Try printing your initial test prints at the filtration recommended on your paper box. That should be "neutral" for your paper, in theory, given an enlarger bulb of the perfect color temperature and brand new filters. For Kodak, this is 65M/55Y.
     
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  7. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    Alright... I'll do that next time.
    I'm just wondering where neutral is for the paper when the film doesn't have an orange mask. They range from light yellow to purple, and trying to find the neutral point seems like it might be tricky.
     
  8. filmnut

    filmnut Member

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    I used to do this alot for customers, back in the ninties, and the filtrations typically were very high, 100 mag, 130 yellow, and sometimes I needed to add some extra using either the built in dichroic, or a filter gell. Another way to help is to put a piece of clear orange film base under the diffusor, and this will help to get your filter numbers back to a more managable level. The film base will add density, so you'll have to compensate, I think one to one and a half stops extra, but as I said its' been a long time!
    Keith
     
  9. tim elder

    tim elder Member

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    I'm curious - have you ever tried using a piece of C41 film instead of an orange filter?

    I do a lot of color printing but have never tried printing cross processed film. I often print with a friend of mine who seems to work a lot with cross processed film and would like to pass on any pointers to him that I could.

    Tim
     
  10. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member

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    One way to go about it is to pick a 'standard' filter pack as a starting point. If the paper box doesn't have one listed 50y 50m is a good place to start. Do a test strip and just aim for density; after you have nailed density make filter adjustments (if the image is really red add equal parts y&m, green subtract M and so on); as you get closer to the colour balance you are after you will find you may need to add or subtract time. After a few tests like this you'll get a properly balanced print. It could be that 0y, 0m will be a winner or 0m, 100y, 10c will be the winner -- with xprocessed films it is generally not a standard filter pack. I've never found the orange mask thing to be too helpful, but others have.
     
  11. filmnut

    filmnut Member

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    Tim;
    Sorry, but that's what I meant by "film base". I should of been more specific, this would be unexposed, processed C-41 film. I would put it above the neg carrier, on the top of the diffusor, so that any dust or scratches wouldn't show. This was quite easy to do on the Durst's that I used at the time, but on other enlargers it might be more difficult.
    Film base seems to help more in some situations, than in others, but if you can get the colour on the print that you want without it, so much the better.
    Keith
     
  12. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member

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    My durst head (cls 501) has a filter built in that is an approximation of the developed unexposed film base (~50y 50m). It was useful when I was running out of y or m.
     
  13. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    Thanks for all the help guys! I don't have a place in my house to have an enlarger, or to develop paper either for that matter. I have to go to SF and rent a darkroom. They have all Durst heads there, and all dichroic. The dials as usual, and not much else. I can go process a section of unexposed 120 film for the time being until I make it back friday. Experiment more, and get back to this post with my results. Should I post my results from my last session on this board so you can see what I'm dealing with exactly?
    I can include a scan of a negative that's still negative too, so we can gauge film base color.
     
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  15. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes Post images.
     
  16. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    [​IMG]

    That's my negative, it's a fairly transparent mask, very slight purple hue.

    [​IMG]

    That's it colors inverted with white balance in photoshop, no touch ups, made the mask color my pure black.

    [​IMG]

    That was my print @ C=40, M=0, Y=25
     

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  17. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    I know, I touched the forbidden Cyan...
    Ultimately, what I really want to do is to make color prints from Black and Whites using appropriate filters and enlarger settings...
     
  18. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    As you can see by inverting the colors in a computer, the neg will be easy to balance. Right now, your neg has a red cast, which translates to cyan on the print. It is not a really bad cyan cast, however. The print you got was to be expected at 0Y/0M. In fact, I am surprised that the orange cast was not even heavier with no filtration.

    I am curious about the orange mask thing myself. (I asked as much in another thread recently.) I have never used one, but I have never been after somewhat "normal" color when cross processing until recently. I am wondering if it might help.
     
  19. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    I'll go give it a try, I'm about to throw some old BW400CN film straight into fixer to go get my filter ready. :]
    So adding cyan to make it c=10 or c=xx amount, it's subtracting cyan, or adding it?
     
  20. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Whatever you do to the filter pack, you are doing the opposite to the print. Adding cyan has the same effect as subtracting equal amounts of yellow and magenta. That idea of filters having the opposite effect is as basic as it gets with color negative printing. Perhaps you should take a color printing class at a local school before going any farther with this...or at least browse through a textbook like Henry Horenstein's "Color Photography - A Working Manual", which is very cheap if you look around online. You will gain a lot of information and theory, and get it all in an organized (and much more quick and complete) fashion that way, instead of picking up bits and pieces on the Internet only as they apply to your immediate situation. If you don't have a handle on standard color neg printing, you don't stand much of a chance in hell of being able to get what you want with cross-processed negs.
     
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  21. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    I did fine with my standard color neg prints, in fact, I did perfect on them. It took me 8 test strips, but once I was dialed in I blazed through them and got a lot done. Contact prints and all! :D
    C=0, M=55, Y=55, was handwritten on the back of each print. I may be new, but I tend to learn and work fast.

    I understand color, just not exactly how these dichroic heads work. And I know independently they work opposite of each other. So does that mean that in reverse they will produce RGB spectrum onto paper once it's printed and processed?

    I'm 20, and in college. I've picked up a Hasselblad months ago, and now I'm in the darkroom, picking up knowledge from person to person and from books I'm picking up along the way. I love color, and I really would love to print color perfectly, no matter how much work it'll be.

    So the basic model is that adding Cyan will give more Red, Magenta more Green, and Yellow more Blue, right?

    And what I'm asking is when C=0, no Cyan is making it through from the head, right?

    I'm sorry for sounding frantic and crazy, you all are providing lots of useful info, and I'm grateful. I am always trying to get more information than I can handle at once though. And maybe taking on too much as well. I know there's no exact formulas when it comes to the dark room, and all I'm doing is putting together a general guide for the next time I try this. But I'm actually happy for the fast responses, it's wonderful to see how many dedicated analog users there are still out there. :]
     
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  22. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    "I understand color, just not exactly how these dichroic heads work. And I know independently they work opposite of each other. So does that mean that in reverse they will produce RGB spectrum onto paper once it's printed and processed?"

    I do not understand that paragraph at all.

    Three additive primary colors of visible light are red, green, and blue. Their complements, respectively, are cyan, magenta, and yellow; the colors of the filters in a color head. These complements to the additive primaries are also called subtractive primaries. You can look at this picture from Wikipedia for a graphic representation of exactly what I just said: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...AdditiveColor.svg/400px-AdditiveColor.svg.png.

    The most basic principle beyond this is that whatever you do to filtration has the opposite effect on the print (when using negative paper, of course).

    Magenta filtration controls magenta and green casts.

    Yellow filtration controls yellow and blue casts.

    Cyan filtration controls cyan and red casts.

    Any time you stack three transparent primary filters in the same amount, you get a neutral grey filter. Thus, whenever all three filters are in use, there is neutral density added in the amount of the lowest filter. Therefore, there is no point in using three filters, unless you "run out" of one of the other two.

    Equal amounts of green and blue equal cyan, therefore changing magenta and yellow filtration in equal amounts has the same effect as changing cyan filtration. (Of course, the difference is that turning UP cyan filtration makes the print more red, while turning DOWN equal amounts of magenta filtration and yellow filtration makes the print more red.)

    Work backward from the print. First, get a rough density at a "normal" filtration. Then, figure out what is wrong with your print color wise. If print has too much of a certain cast, your goal is to add the complement of that cast to the print. You know that the opposite of what you want to done the print, you want to do to your filter pack. Since your goal is to add the complement of the cast to the print, you must subtract that complement from your filter pack OR add the color of the cast itself to your filter pack; it's the same thing. Thus:

    If your cast is red: You need to add cyan to the print. Therefore, you need to subtract cyan from the filter pack. Since you are using the two warm filters only, put "subtract cyan" into "warm" terms: "add red". Equal amounts of magenta and yellow equal red. Thus, when you have a red cast, add equal amounts magenta and yellow filtration to the filter pack.

    If your cast is magenta: You need to add green to the print. Therefore you need to subtract green from the filter pack. This is the same thing as adding the compliment of green to your filter pack. Thus, when you have a magenta cast, add magenta filtration.

    If your cast is yellow: You need to add blue to the print. Therefore you need to subtract blue from the filter pack. This is the same thing as adding the compliment of blue to your filter pack. Thus, when you have a yellow cast, add yellow filtration.

    If your cast is green: You need to add magenta to the print. Therefore you need to subtract magenta from the filter pack. Thus, when you have a green cast, subtract magenta filtration.

    If your cast is blue: You need to add yellow to the print. Therefore you need to subtract yellow from the filter pack. Thus, when you have a blue cast, subtract yellow filtration.

    If your cast is cyan: You need to add red to the print. Therefore, you need to subtract red from the filter pack. Equal amounts of magenta and yellow equal red. Thus, when you have a cyan cast, subtract equal amounts magenta and yellow filtration from the filter pack.

    You should be able to spot at least one basic trend in all of this that you can use as a shortcut: If the print has a warm cast, you must add filtration. If the print has a cool cast, you must subtract filtration. Thus, when using just magenta and yellow filters (both of which are warm filters), you always add filtration to cool a print and subtract filtration to warm it.

    This would not hold true in all cases if you were using cyan filtration; yet another reason to leave that knob alone unless you min. out on one of the other filters.

    Filters will have the same affect on the cast of your prints any time you are using a color negative paper, regardless of film, process, etc. This includes cross processed film. The film is different, but the effect of filtration changes during printing is the same.

    The hard part is identifying what each cast *actually* looks like (not just what it *sounds like it looks like*), and honing in on "in-between" casts. For instance, a blue cast looks purple, not blue. A magenta cast looks pink. A red cast looks kind of muddy; not red like you would imagine. A color cast is almost never just one or the other. The "art" comes in employing casts to achieve, amplify, or minimize various moods and effects without making them look "bad".

    ...but if you "understand color" are getting perfect prints, you know all this already, and printing your cross processed shots to the best color you can achieve should be easy as pie for you. Everything I just talked about is first-day stuff in a color printing class or color photo book. I recommend both of these, as it sounds like you need them, and they will give you far more info we can on the Internet.
     
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  23. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

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    Yes, but I prefer to think of it this way: The "cyan" dial controls the cyan/red balance, "magenta" controls the magenta/green balance, and "yellow" controls the yellow/blue balance. It's a bit of a subtle distinction, but for me it makes the whole think click. Combine that with a ringaround that adjusts all three colors up or down and finding a good color balance becomes much easier.

    FWIW, my own enlarger (a Philips PCS130 with PCS150 color unit) actually has those pairs (cyan/red, etc.) marked on the color controls. This is a very useful tool. If I get a print that's obviously too green (say), I can look at the control and just plain see which way I need to turn the dial to make it less green (aka to make the print more magenta, which means less magenta filtration).

    No. Cyan is the combination of green and blue light, and a cyan filter blocks red light, but leaves green and blue. When the cyan filter is set at 0, it means that the cyan filter is out of the light path, so all the red light the bulb is putting out is reaching the paper. The levels of green and blue light reaching the paper are determined by the magenta and yellow filters, respectively. Even when set to its maximum, the cyan filter won't affect the amount of green and blue light reaching the paper (in theory; in practice there'll be a small effect, since no filter is perfect in a theoretically abstract way). When set to maximum, the cyan filter will block most of the red light from reaching the paper.
     
  24. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    Alright, I'm sorry for sounding pretentious. :[

    Thanks for clarifying though, and what I did think was right, I just realized how these colorpack filters work. Thanks a lot!

    I do plan on taking a color printing class of some sort, but there will not be any classes in a few months. I'm on my own for now.

    And yes, that color chart is what I understand, it was in the dark room I realized I had to work inversely from that model. White=Black, Red=Cyan, etc. And my thought was since the orange filtration from the normal C41 cast was gone, I would have to lower my magenta and yellow and throw cyan in there. But I was terribly wrong. :]

    At least I'm learning from my mistakes, and realizing I'm going to have to throw in as much Yellow+Magenta as possible next time!

    I'm learning, and I'll keep working. I'll report what happens saturday!
     
  25. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    If the orange mask is gone, warmth is removed from the filtration. The opposite happens to the print, so it warmth is added to it. You would have to subtract warmth from the print to make up for it. To subtract warmth from the print, you must add warmth to the filter pack.

    Or, more simply, the orange mask being gone takes away orange, and you need to add orange to make up for it.

    The way I approach orange casts is to add both magenta and yellow filtration, with yellow added in twice the amount of the added magenta. For instance, if I decide I have a 20-point orange cast, I might start by adding 20M and 40Y.

    Cyan need not be touched unless you run out of magenta and/or yellow, or unless you want to dial in very precise amounts of neutral density. Cyan works opposite the other two filters, since it is cool and the other two are warm; another reason not to use it.
     
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  26. fiducio

    fiducio Member

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    Thanks a lot 2F/2F, I'll attempt the same print.

    I'll keep these as basic guidelines when I'm printing again, you've helped quite a bit. And answered my questions very thoroughly. :]