Cross-processing paper

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by srs5694, Feb 17, 2006.

  1. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

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    I'm just idly curious: What happens if you cross-process paper -- say, RA-4 color paper in B&W chemistry? Is the image likely to be useable? Does it have any interesting characteristics, like better reproduction of tones in color negatives (similar to what you'd get with Panalure)? Would this tend to ruin the chemistry for subsequent use with regular B&W paper, if done in trays? I'm guessing that the blix would ruin any attempt to do B&W paper in RA-4 chemistry, so that's not likely to be very interesting. What about RA-4 paper in Cibachrome or R-3000 chemistry or vice-versa? (FWIW, I've already tried printing slides on RA-4 paper and chemistry, with interesting color-reversed results.)
     
  2. Donald Qualls

    Donald Qualls Member

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    RA-4 paper is generally panchromatic, so you *should* get a B&W silver image -- however, the relative sensitivities of the various color layers may not be a good match for what you'd expect, and there will likely be some color cast or other problems with the resulting print.

    You're correct, B&W materials in any current color process will come out with no image at all; there's no dye to replace the silver removed by the bleach, because they don't have couplers to hold the dyes presented by color developers.

    Cibachrome chemistry is essentially a B&W print developer followed by a dye-destruction bleach -- where the bleach removes developed silver, it also destroys the dye in that layer, then the fixer removes the remaining halide leaving a three layer direct dye positive. RA-4 paper is completely incompatible with this process; you'll most likely get blank paper with whatever color cast you'd get by putting it in common B&W fixer. Cibachrome paper in RA-4 chemistry will give solid black -- nothing in the chemistry will destroy the Cibachrome dyes, so you'll wind up with three full density dye layers over the whole print.

    You *can* reverse RA-4 paper, BTW -- expose it to your slide, process in B&W developer, stop, wash, exposed to light to fully fog, then put it through the regular RA-4 process. You'll get some odd colors, but might be able to find a filter pack that works. You *might* be able to get a negative print from Cibachrome, but you'd have to develop, bleach in something like a B&W reversal bleach (must dissolve the silver without either dissolving the unexposed halide or rehalogenating the developed silver), then fog and process normally.
     
  3. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    I tried it a while back in an attempt to make black and white prints from color negatives. The results were very poor. Even with vigorous processing the paper does not produce decent blacks.
     
  4. ouyang

    ouyang Member

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    there is special paper for printing color neg.s in b/w it
    's sensitivity is made to match (more) the spectral sensitivity of the film I think. Although at home I have a box I've never used it.. I'd have to see what it is called ..
     
  5. htmlguru4242

    htmlguru4242 Member

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    I believe that you're referring to Kodak's Panalure paper. I'm pretty sure that it's been discontinued, unfortunately ...
     
  6. ouyang

    ouyang Member

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    yes, that's it.. it does look old. I got it with my enlarger..
     
  7. Donald Qualls

    Donald Qualls Member

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    *All* of Kodak's B&W papers, whether silver gelatin or dye-image (RA-4), are either discontinued or just now discontinuing.

    Oriental Seagull made a panchro paper for a while, but it's been gone for 2-3 years IIRC.

    I've heard Fuji makes a panchro silver gelatin paper, and a B&W RA-4 number as well, but unless you run a mini-lab, the RA-4 won't be much help (comes only on rolls, AFAIK) and I don't believe I've seen any indication they import any of their silver-image papers to the USA.

    Which leaves the annoying option of making an interpositive and internegative, or reversal inerpositive, on panchro B&W film, from which to print on B&W paper if you want B&W prints from color. Or take the negative to a mini-lab and get an almost-black and white print via digital process... :tongue:
     
  8. Schlapp

    Schlapp Member

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    If Cibachrome is essentially B&W with dyes, could you expose cibachrome and develop it as B&W in for example Dektol?
     
  9. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    If you process Ilfochrome in B&W chemistry, you get a sheet of paper that is black with a faint image. Since all of the dyes are present, you get a black sheet result of all of those dyes and a vague image courtesy of the silver you developed.

    You need the rest of the Ilfochrome process to reveal a color image.

    PE
     
  10. Schlapp

    Schlapp Member

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    Good stuff and thanks. B&W is what I was after :smile:.
    So, if you underexpose/overexpose and develop in Dektol would the image be more dominant?? And does B&W fix work with this??
     
  11. Photo Engineer

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    You will get NO white whatsoever!

    B&W fix will work to fix out silver halide but will not change the image of black on black.

    PE
     
  12. Schlapp

    Schlapp Member

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    Thanx PE. Might just give it try. I have some household bleach - bound to do the trick :smile:
     
  13. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

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    I have cross processed RA-4 to do rough contact sheets of unmounted 35mm clour slides. It was about 1.5' in a strong first dev continuous agitation, then stop, rinse, optical re-exeposure then regular RA-4. Results are not great.

    Then yesterday was gifted a full box of Radiance III, for prints from slides. R3 chemistry - can't even find the Z-manual anywhere online. So I ran it the same as the Supra III RA-4 paper experiments, and I was almost bang on with the colurs the first test print!
     
  14. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Mike;

    That 16x20 in my living room is a cross processed RA4 print from an Ektachrome slide! :wink:

    It does work.

    Ron
     
  15. darkroom_rookie

    darkroom_rookie Member

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    Does Ultra Endura from 2004 work? It's yellow as lemon at this point, does that mean I can expect it to be magenta-bluish after this kind of cross-process? Can it be done in a drum? How much re-exposure is needed and to what type of artificial light?
     
  16. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Is the Dmin yellow or are prints yellow with white whites? This makes a big difference.

    PE
     
  17. darkroom_rookie

    darkroom_rookie Member

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    Dmin is yellow.
     
  18. darkroom_rookie

    darkroom_rookie Member

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    If it's of some importance, I develop in freshly mixed 3-part Tetenal developer, stop in diluted vinegar and bleach in Kodak RT-LU bleach fix. Absolutely white whites with brand-new paper (Kodak and Fuji), and just a slight amount of yellowish whites with old Supra III.
     
  19. Photo Engineer

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    That is a color balance issue and not a keeping problem.

    The paper should be OK. Supra III cannot be cross processed well.

    PE