Cure for Curl on 120 Efke 25 and Rollei Pan?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by sanking, Apr 11, 2009.

  1. sanking

    sanking Member

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    I have been shooting some Efke 25 and Rollei Pan 25 in 120 format with my Mamiya 7II and Fuji GW690III to see if these films offer any advantage over Fuji Acros Tmax-100 in this size. I am developing both in Pyrocat-MC, using two-bath development to tame the high contrast. Results are very nice and I am pleased with the fine grain and detail in these films. Unfortunately, both films have a lot of curl. Is this curl permanent, or will it disappear with time if the film is stored in negatives sheets with pressure from the top?

    Sandy King
     
  2. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    I had no curl problem (though my density was a little low; I guessed at the time in D23) when hung by a large clothespin until fully dry.

    I think the fastest way to kill a curl is to re-wet and dry, but I believe the curl will subside if given the dictionary treatment.
     
  3. RobertV

    RobertV Member

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    The Efke films have been always curly.

    The Rollei Pan 25 film has a polyester layer with double non-curling layer. However polyester curls much more then tri-acetate. Especially the way and time schedule the film has been drying (humidity) is of big importance of the curl of a polyester film. Approx. 2 hours schould be the drying time at room temperature (20 degrees C/68 F). If you're drying too quickly polyester is curling like hell.

    1 1/2 -2 hours + a resonable weight is enough to put them later in a sleeve and get rid of any curl.

    Best regards,

    Robert

    (Hopefully you do not have a curl syndrome now) :smile:
     
  4. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Sandy;

    The curl is inherent in the emulsion shrinkage during processing which causes curl inward towards the emulsion side. We called the curl "piping" due to the seeming formation of a pipe of film. It is corrected in manufacture by addition of anti-curl agents in the emulsion, the base or both at the time of manufacture. If it is out of control, then there may be batches that curl and batches that do not or batches that vary in the propensity to curl.

    Many of our experimental coatings curled a lot due to the lack of special agents in them during the early test phase of a project.

    PE
     
  5. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Ron,

    Is "piping" permanent or will the film eventually flatten if left under pressure in negative sleeves for a while? If I knew that the film would flatten in a week or so I would wait to scan them as the curl really complicates my normal procedure.

    Sandy
     
  6. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Sandy;

    I'm sorry, but that is one of the unanswerable questions in the universe. :smile:

    It depends on emulsion thickness, additives in the emulsion / film support / undercoat package and a number of other factors such as processing and storage conditions. The only way to find out is to store the film as flat as possible and see if it uncurls.

    If that does not work or if you are in a hurry, sometimes steaming the emulsion side of the film gently will relax the curl and sometimes steaming the base side will do it again depending on the above parameters. If you are careful, you can do this over and over until you exhaust all possible combinations with no change or get a favorable result.

    Be careful though. Some emulsions will crack or craze if you try flattening it. Emulsions without enough stress relief or proper hardening will be particularly prone to this. Try the flattening on a less desirable image or strip.

    PE
     
  7. Eric Rose

    Eric Rose Subscriber

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    I have used a lot of Efke 400 in 35mm and it curls like crazy. I put the negs in sleaves and then in my hot press (naturally the heat is off) and this tames them a bit. The curl never goes away and I find that I have to enlarge using glass carriers. Since you are scanning I am not sure if this is an option or not.
     
  8. epatsellis

    epatsellis Member

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    I don't have curling issues with any EFKE film whatsoever, however I do use a rather heavy spring clip (one of the bigger 6" long metal ones) when drying after my first roll curled like crazy and I figured it was worth a try.
     
  9. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    Interesting discussion about the curling....are such curling issues also to be found with the Efke/Adox sheet film Ron?

    Ed
     
  10. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I hang the film with a weighted clip and store it flat in a glassine sleeve, and it eventually flattens.

    There is no problem with Efke sheet film curling. The base is different.
     
  11. Toffle

    Toffle Member

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    A year or so ago I used a bit of Maco Cube 400 (a cousin/clone of the Efke bunch) I have never seen so much curl in a negative. Just a couple of weeks ago I dug one of these negatives out... (It had been stored pressed flat for over a year.) It was like trying to load a wet noodle into the negative carrier. It is a sweet film, though and gives some very nice prints from what seems to be very low density.

    Cheers,
     
  12. tim_bessell

    tim_bessell Member

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    I have been using Efke PL50 in 4x5, always flat as a fritter when dry.
     
  13. RobertV

    RobertV Member

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    Cube 400 is a TSF film on blue Polyester layer without any non-curling layer.

    The R3 (since 2004) is the same (TSF) film on clear Polyester with double non curling layer en look there is a huge difference in handling.
     
  14. Curt

    Curt Subscriber

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    I air dry Rollei Pan 25 and it flattens in sleeves after a short time. I hang it up to dry with a weight on the end of the roll. Efke / Adox curls more than Rollei Pan 25.

    Sandy what have you worked out for development with Pyrocat MC? Way back I got very good with Panatomic X and Rodinal but it was a matter of fitting the scene to the film, when it did it was bliss. I am determined to work with Rollei Pan 25, the quality control is excellent.
     
  15. RobertV

    RobertV Member

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    The Rollei Pan 25 has a double non-curling layer.

    Here an attempt with a W665 (Windisch) ultra fine grain developer and Rollei Pan 25 on 35mm. With this Ortho Phenylenediamine developer no grain is visible and nothing to focus on with my Peak focusser on 40x50cm:

    [​IMG]

    A small part of the negative:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Curt,

    I am developing the Rollei Pan 25 in two-bath Pyrocat-MC. For both working A and working B I dilute the stock solutions 1:10 and develop at 72F for five minutes in each, with *no water rinse* between the working A and B solutions. I agitate for the first thirty seconds, and then for ten seconds every minute thereafter. No pre-soak is used. After development I stop in a 1/2 strength acetic acid bath, then fix for six minutes in TF-3.

    The 1:10 dilution may seem strong, considering that with normal development we use a 1:1:100 dilution of Pyrocat-MC. However, if you do the calculations you will find that there is less of the reducer (catechol) in one liter of working A than there is metol in one liter of working A of divided D23. You get an average gradient of about .55 with the 1:10 dilution. For a slightly lower average gradient you could go to 1:20.

    I have compared results with two-bath development Pyrocat-MC and Rollei RLS, which is recommended for this film, and found that I get more film speed with Pyrocat than Rollei RLS, and grain and sharpness appear just as good, if not better.

    Sandy King



     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2009
  17. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    David and others:

    With reference to sheet film base ( and, if appropriate, the emulsion ), is the "new" Adox 25, 50, and 100 ASA film identical to the Efke film? If Mirko is watching, can you respond Mirko?

    Ed
     
  18. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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  19. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes, it is just rebranded. I have both versions of the 100. I don't use the 25 or 50.
     
  20. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    OK...thanks David and others.

    Ed
     
  21. cmo

    cmo Member

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    A very good cure is to use acetate films like Tmax 100 and Acros 100... the results are at least as good when it comes to grain and tones, but minus the curl, minus a lot of hassle, minus charge quality issues, minus packaging problems, minus torrents of marketing bla and, last but not least, at reasonable prices.
    When it comes to image quality most of the Wonder Wart-Hog films and alchemist developers let their pants down anway.
     
  22. sanking

    sanking Member

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    I stated very clearly that I was testing Efke 25 and Rollei Pan 25 to see if they offered some advantage over TMAX-100 and Fuji Acros. So I am already very aware of the qualities of Tmax-100 and Acros.

    Your opinion is close to my own thinking about this so I think you are probably right. But, I really am testing to get some real life comparisons, not to reinforce what I think.

    Sandy King





     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2009