Cyan setting on color enlarger?

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by apconan, Jan 13, 2010.

  1. apconan

    apconan Member

    Messages:
    113
    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I've read everywhere that one should never or rarely touch the cyan filter settings on a color enlarger when printing RA-4.

    So if a medium value is 25Y and 25M, what value should I set the cyan as?
     
  2. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,909
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Zero, always at zero!

    PE
     
  3. tjaded

    tjaded Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,022
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Location:
    San Francisc
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ditto what PE said!
     
  4. Bob-D659

    Bob-D659 Member

    Messages:
    1,300
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Location:
    Winnipeg, Ca
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If your exposure times are way too short, like when doing a 3x3 print from a 2x2 negative with a 250 watt bulb, you can set all three dials to say 50 for a neutral density filter, then ONLY adjust the other two, leaving cyan on 50. so if you std filtering is 45Y 50M then your filter dials would read 95Y 100M and 50 C.

    Otherwise do not touch that dial. :smile:
     
  5. thisismyname09

    thisismyname09 Member

    Messages:
    420
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Why, exactly, are you not supposed to use cyan and what will it do if you do use it?
     
  6. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    17,181
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I've never printed colour from transparency material.

    If I had, would I have had a use for the cyan filter?

    Just curious.

    Matt
     
  7. donbga

    donbga Member

    Messages:
    2,084
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    Shooter:
    Large Format Pan
    You only need a magenta/yellow filter pack for color negative printing. Adding cyan only adds density to the filter pack and can also cause color cross over making printing a lot more difficult than need be.
     
  8. sidearm613

    sidearm613 Member

    Messages:
    269
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm not sure if this is true, but I believe that you do sometimes have to touche the cyan dial when doing Cibachrome. But never with RA-4. Somebody more knowledgeable confirm that what I'm on about is true.
     
  9. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Member

    Messages:
    9,066
    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Location:
    Ryde, Isle o
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    So what's it there for then?


    Steve.
     
  10. perkeleellinen

    perkeleellinen Member

    Messages:
    2,261
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Location:
    Warwickshire
    Shooter:
    35mm
    It's for printing from slides. My Kodak Colour Print Viewing Kit suggests adding/removing cyan on certain filter cards.
     
  11. Mick Fagan

    Mick Fagan Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,117
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Location:
    Melbourne Au
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Various colour enlarging techniques with different materials and processes over the years have used Cyan filtration, however with RA4 you shouldn’t ever require Cyan, unless as described by Bob D569.

    That said, Cyan is actually controlled in colour negative printing by density. If you have a print that is too dark, then you will mostly find it is a bit red, usually one or two units too much.

    By pulling the exposure by around ¼ of a stop in time, or by changing the aperture by about a ¼ of a stop to reduce the exposure, you will accomplish two things. You will have made the print lighter, and the red should disappear. Effectively adding Cyan!

    Mick.
     
  12. Terrence Brennan

    Terrence Brennan Member

    Messages:
    304
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Cyan filtration

    Except you may not get true ND; there may be a filter cast introduced.

    The idea works well if you are using a negative translator, or happen to have a Kodak set-up photometer, which will automatically filter out any bias in the filter settings. By bias I mean that if you had set the filter dials to 45Y 50M, you might find, if you compared the readings on your translator with the filters in and out of the beam, that you actually had, say, 41Y 53M. The problem is that filters age, they fade and chip, and get dirty and dusty, and there can also be mechanical problems with the cams and tracks used to position them in the enlarger head.

    In one operation I worked at in the past I made internegatives, as well as Ektachrome dupes and Type C prints on the same enlarger. All the darkrooms in this operation had really nice Minolta-Zyco translators, and there wasn't a single enlarger head, out of about 15 darkrooms, which tracked with 100% linearity. One enlarger I had in my darkroom was fitted with four filters; cyan, magenta, yellow and neutral. When making small density adjustments using that particular enlarger, dialing the density wheel would cause very small (1-2 CC) colour shifts, so it wasn't 100% neutral.

    BTW, cyan and yellow filtration are used for Ektachrome printing and when making duplicate transparancies on Ektachrome and Fujichrome duplicating stocks. I have also used the cyan filters when printing a negative exposed under florescent lighting; under those circumstances, you end up removing all of your magenta filtration out and adding a not-inconsiderable ammount of cyan filtration.

    But Bob-D659 is correct; for the most part, don't touch that dial!!
     
  13. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,909
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    You may need to use cyan filters for Ilfochrome printing due to the fact that it is daylight balanced. You use M+Y filters for negative printing because it is tungsten balance. (this is an oversimplification)

    Do not use all 3 filters for reducing light intensity because it can introduce a color bias. Use a true neutral density filter for that purpose, or stop down the lens and reduce the exposure time.

    In rare instances lately (2+years or so) there have been reports of Fuji CA paper requiring cyan filtration. My investigations so far say that there were either problems with the paper, or the process. CAII paper, introduced in 2006 requires a new developer and development time.

    PE
     
  14. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,948
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2004
    Location:
    South Norfol
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Does this mean that CAII will not work correctly with standard Kodak RA developer and bleach-fix?

    Tom
     
  15. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,909
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    According to a presentation by the Fuji engineers at the ICPS conference in May of 2006, the answer is "NO".

    PE
     
  16. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    8,003
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2003
    Location:
    Milan
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Cyan is needed as neutral density, for R-prints and possibly Ciba printing, in the rare instance you need more red and or when yellow and or mag is at zero.
    <edit>
    Oops R prints do use C -- my mistake.
    </edit>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2010
  17. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,909
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    John;

    Cyan used to create a neutral density will cause a varying color bias as you adjust filtration due to the impurity in the filter coloration when compared to a true neutral. As an example, cyan adds a variable yellow component as you change the cyan filter level. This would require a reduction in yellow as cyan goes up, otherwise the beam begins to turn yellow instead of remaining neutral.

    Cyan filtration should be confined to only reversal printing unless there is a gross error in the negative film processing or exposure conditions, or the film is bad with severe fogging. These are rare conditions such that if you meet with them, you have a problem with the system somewhere.

    Average "GOOD" use should require M+C or Y+C for Ilfochrome and M+Y for all color negatives.

    In over 50 years of color work, I have never had to do otherwise, nor have I known of anyone else who has unless there is a problem as I describe.

    PE
     
  18. juanito

    juanito Member

    Messages:
    137
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Location:
    Mexico city
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have printed a lot of Cibachrome and you usually use Cyan and yellow filtraton. When printing ra4 you do not use cyan.
     
  19. fdisilvestro

    fdisilvestro Member

    Messages:
    73
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you run out of Y or M or Both, you would make things worse if you use Cyan. You will actually need negative cyan, which is not possible. The solution is to use an aditional filter Y, M or Red (Y+M).
    I have a Durst Color head which had an additional + 30 Red (Y+M) if you ever had a case where you run out of the regular Y or M
    As other have previously said, you should never use the three filters together.
    Cyan is commonly used in positive to positive printing (cibachrome/ilfochrome).
     
  20. fdisilvestro

    fdisilvestro Member

    Messages:
    73
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    To clarify my previous post, If you run out of the maximum Y+M filtration you will need an additional Red fiter. In the case zero Y or M is not enough, then you will need cyan. Anyway one of the filters should be zero.

    What about printing from an unmasked color negative film like Rollei Digibase CN 200? Will you need Cyan filtration in some cases?
     
  21. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    8,003
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2003
    Location:
    Milan
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ron and others are correct, but you can use cyan for ND in a pinch and cross processed negs often need C, but these are not normal negs.
     
  22. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,545
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    When printing RA4 or Reversal with a colour dichroic head we only use two filters, using the third filter will create unwanted ND which may be required but as PE stated use the ND filter on some enlargers for that purpose.
    All the expensive Durst units I used had a ND filter for reducing light output.

    There are many uses for the cyan filter , specifically in Cibachrome and in the past nuetralizing interneg film packs.
    I have seen in RA4 applications for the cyan filter when selective burning is required or in JD Callows case when one cross process and prints RA4.
     
  23. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,909
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Selective burning is an excellent example of use of Cyan filtration.

    Unmasked negatives usually require an additional 50R filtration in the pack.

    PE
     
  24. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

    Messages:
    1,749
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Location:
    Tufts Univer
    Shooter:
    35mm
    With color negative printing you will always be able to get a usable filter pack with Magenta and Yellow. I usually print at 65 Yellow 75cc Magenta. There is simply no need for a cyan filter because you will always be balancing away from cyan.

    I think if you had a baseless film you would need more magenta and yellow filtration to give the film an apparent orange base.

    I needed Cyan filtration once with fuji paper that was crossing over itself backwards.

    The filter pack in Ilfochrome serves only to correct for variances in the paper. You calibrate it to achieve neutral greys and then you're done unless you want special effects.