d-76 packaging - wrong amount?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by jordanstarr, Jun 27, 2007.

  1. jordanstarr

    jordanstarr Member

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    on my d-76 pouch of concentrated powder it says there is 14.6oz, but i measured 10oz. so what i did was put 5oz and treated it as though it was half of the package and mixed my developer accordingly (it says the package of 14.6oz will make 3.8L, so i just took half the package and made 1.9L). the negatives turned out normal (which would be 7.3oz), but what's up with that? does the powder get more dense with time or something? it may seem trivial as i just treated it in terms of percentage and it worked out fine, but if i used a different form of measuring it could have been horrible.
     
  2. jordanstarr

    jordanstarr Member

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    i also just mixed my xtol and it's the same deal - says 9.4oz but measured 6.5oz. as i look harder maybe i'm just an idiot as the beaker says "fl.oz", so i'm assuming fluid ounces are a different measurement than normal ounces? correct me if i'm wrong. i'm canadian, i work in mL and L.
     
  3. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Think about it, they have to be. A fluid ounce is a volumetric measure, corresponding to the volume of an ounce of water: 20 oz to the pint (Americans use smaller pints of 16 fl. oz., but bigger fluid ounces, so an American pint is roughly 8/9 the size of a real pint).

    Now consider specific gravity. Alcohol (from memory) is 0.78, so one fluid ounce will weigh 0.78 oz, while mercury is 13.0 so a fluid ounce weighs 13 oz.

    Powdered developer chemicals sink, so an S.G. of 1.3 to 1.5 sounds about right, so 10 fl. oz. would be 13 to 15 oz. An odd idea, measuring powders in fl. oz., but unless I'm reading you wrong (which I may well be) I see no other possibility.

    Cheers,

    Roger
     
  4. niels

    niels Member

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    Well, at the risk of starting a flame war: there's a reason to use the metric system ;-)

    To confuse things even more: I just mixed a "small" bag of D-76 actually. That also states the contents in ounces, but it mixes 1 liter of developer, rather than some non-metric measure.
    I did not measure the weight of it, unfortunately.

    cheers,
    ./Niels
     
  5. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Dear Niels,

    True enough. I can see a couple of real reasons to use imperial measure -- it's much harder to be an order of magnitude out, and a pint is a much more satisfying measure for beer than a half litre (and your beer goes cold if you order a whole litre, unless you're really thirsty) -- but the main reason that I still use them is that I was brought up with them and am used to them. My generation (I was 57 last week) has to make a bit of an effort to think in the metric system, at least outside the lab (and even there, I seem to recall that the MKS/CGS changeover was when I was at school), but I think it's an effort worth making.

    I can't see any excuse at all, except perhaps a desire to give short measure, for the short or wine gallon (3.96 l) instead of the imperial gallon (4.54 l). That'll get the flamers going!

    To return to the main point, though, yes, ounces-per-litre is pretty weird.

    Cheers,

    Roger
     
  6. niels

    niels Member

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    Also besides the point, but Roger, you are spot on about the beer. It was really satisfying to be able to order a pint while I was in the UK recently. It just feels right ;-)

    The Germans have a nice work-around for this. They use half-litre glasses, but one just orders a "big" beer.

    And I can definitely see your point about what one is used to. I lived in the US for a year, and the only thing I ever got used to were the length measures (inch, feet, yard) and a couple of simple volumes. Fluid ounces and weights, the different gallons, just confused the hell out of me.

    cheers,
    ./Niels
     
  7. jim appleyard

    jim appleyard Member

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    Roger, happy birthday!
     
  8. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

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    There are "ounces" of weight and "fluid ounces" of volume. There are 16 ounces in a pound, and there are 32 fluid ounces in a quart, and four quarts in a gallon. Speaking colloquially, we don't usually specify "fluid" ounces when talking about volumes, because it is assumed that liquids are measured in fluid ounces, and solids and powders are measured by weight, at least when we talk about "ounces" of a solid or powder as opposed to cups or teaspoons.

    The "ounces" on the package should be weight, not volume. If you measured the volume of the powder in (fluid) ounces, it wouldn't likely correspond to the weight of the powder in ounces.

    Just to make life more confusing, precious metals are usually weighed in Troy ounces, and there are 12 of those to a pound.
     
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  9. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Some older developer recipes could well be written in Apothecarie's ounces, which is the same as a Troy ounce AFAIK.
     
  10. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    Ah, one of the wonderful things about being an American is the ability to be totally schizophrenic in measurements - my print fixer formula for instance is 1-cup sodium thiosulfate, 20-mg sodium metabisulfite, and half-a-tray of water.
    juan
     
  11. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Add a tablespoon of ammonium chloride and two teaspoons of sodium sulfite to that, and you should be pretty close to OF-1! :D
     
  12. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    This must be what gives UK beer a bad name. Pubs that serve it so hot that at room temperture it cools down. :tongue:
     
  13. David Brown

    David Brown Subscriber

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    Never mind the Imperial/Metric debate and beer ...:rolleyes:

    It is probably not a good practice to mix only portions of a pre-mixed powder developer. There is no guarantee that you will get even proportions of the ingredients unless you mix the whole package.
     
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  15. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Dear David,

    Yes, but there are 20 ounces to a pint and 40 to a quart, not 16 and 32. On the other hand, your fl. oz. are bigger than mine...Another good argument for the metric system, which at least is consistent world-wide.

    And as you say, many old formulae are given in apothecary weight, not avoirdupois. Though I can't remember (and am too lazy to check) whether an apothecary pound is the same as an avoirdupois pound. I'm pretty sure it isn't, and that the ounces are different too -- just like imperial and US measure.

    Cheers,

    Roger
     
  16. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, this is true. I have no objection to the metric system, but for the purpose of understanding the label on Kodak products, which the original poster asked about, there are 16 US oz to a pound, and they are not the same as fluid ounces, US or British.

    As for reconciling Troy/apothecary weights to avoirdupois, according to Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary in Troy weight--

    24 grains = 1 pennyweight (1.555 grams); 20 pennyweights = 1 ounce (31.103 grams); 12 ounces = 1 pound (0.373 kilogram). The grain, ounce, and pound are the same as in apothecaries' weight, the grain alone being the same as in avoirdupois weight.
     
  17. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Dear David,

    Sorry: didn't mean to muddy the waters still further. I've just come back from a very liquid lunch at the Societé des Ainés Ruraux or Society of Rural Elders.

    I think that weight is the same in both cases; it's just the 'a pint's a pound the world around' (as my wife was taught at school) that confuses matters.

    Thanks very much for the details on the two pounds: 454 g vs. 373 g. So a troy ounce is 31,1g and an avoirdupois ounce is 28,4g, around 10% different. AAARGH! Bring on metrication...

    Cheers,

    Roger
     
  18. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Totally off topic, but...

    One of my "favorite ounces" is the Ethiopian "Birr". It's defined as the weigth of one Maria-Theresien-Taler, of 1780 date - or 28.0668 g. "Birr" is also the monetary unit of Ethiopia. A "birra" however, is a small bottle of beer (at least in Eritrea).
     
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  19. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Estmado Ole! (I can't seem to get ALT 173, the upside-down !],

    Surely all current Maria Theresa dollars are dated 1780, to avoid confusion...

    But you're right: this is surely the natural unit of measurement.

    Cheers,

    Roger
     
  20. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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    Dear jordanstarr,

    I was too lazy to read all the posts so I apologize if this has been stated by others. A fluid ounce is the volume of water that weighs one ounce. It can be very confusing to the uninitiated. I see Roger has already brought up the differences in "Imperial" measures!

    Neal Wydra
     
  21. z-man

    z-man Member

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    when an oz was an oz

    happy birthday roger-i finally feel less intimidated now that i know that i have 5 yrs on you

    when i was a biker in the 60's an "oh zee" was an ounce of la yerba buena but there was allways somebody who would start a serious throw down by claiming that " this oh zee's short-it's only 29grms"-buyers would allways demand a 32 grm oz while those that sold, standardized on the 29 grm oz-how did i live thru all that i wonder?!?!?

    by the way, since you are in acatan, do you speak the local? i only recently found out that my family name is the same as a city very near bilbao-i am andalus moor and the idea that i might also be vasco seems mighty strange at this late date-the political implications are personaly confusing so i think i'll just move to andora and start up my own version of the reconquista refrita

    wanna come along?-i know you still got a black shadow or equivilent stashed some where

    vaya con dios hermanito
     
  22. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Not just the UK. Beer is often reckoned to taste best at the temperature at which it is brewed, and there are a number of Belgian beers (the world's leading beer-brewing nation, for my money) that are better at room temperature, even warm room temperature, than chilled. And given the English climate, and the nature of most traditional pubs, 'room temperature' IS slightly chilled.

    By contrast, 90% of American beer (brewed with rice and maize, so it's not even legally beer in Germany) is so disgusting that it's only drinkable when half frozen.

    But to quote Theodore Sturgeon, a great American, upon being told that 90% of science fiction was rubbish,

    "Sir, 90 per cent of anything is rubbish."

    A maxim I have often applied to my own photography (and that of others).

    Cheers,

    Roger
     
  23. jim appleyard

    jim appleyard Member

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    True, but don't tell that to the folks who drink Genesee Cream Ale (called Genny Screamers for the after-effect). It's a regional brew that's awful at any temp.
     
  24. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Estimado Hermano,

    The whole bit on Aquitania/Acatan/Catalunya/Navarra, not to mention Euskera batua, is mightily confusing and depends on who is drawing the maps.

    I speak modest modern French and can just about read Catalan and Provençal, but not Euskera. As for the Shadow, I wish! That or a Brough or a Hesketh (I've ridden both but never a Vinnie). All I have now is a 77/78 R100RS, twin-plugged, gas-flowed and with the 'neck' in the oilways widened to allow 7500-8000 rpm. This gives me about the same bhp at the rear wheel (70+) as the bike had at the crankshaft when new. It's still just about good for over 130 mph/210 km/h, two up, which is OK by me.

    'I wanna go back to Andorra/It's the land I do adore/They spent four dollars and ninety cents/On armaments for their defense/Did you ever hear such confidence?/It's the land I do adore...'

    (Woody Guthrie? Pete Seeger? Can anyone remind me?)

    Do you spend much time in Spain or France? Perhaps we can arrange to meet...

    Vaya con dios,

    Roger
     
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  25. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Dear Jim,

    Oh, dear...

    I tried some once (just a can or two) because my wife Frances (silver wedding last Sunday) was born in Rochester and brought up in Hilton. It didn't seem bad, but from from what you say, it's lucky I didn't try more.

    Doesn't Genesee also do a brew named after an improbable number of horses? Or is that another upstate brewery? (I met Frances in Los Angeles -- she moved as soon as she graduated from high school, so such details are understandably hazy).

    Cheers,

    Roger
     
  26. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Not all of them... I have a very very worn one which I got cheap in Eritrea (it had the wrong portrait on) which is probably a 1774 one.

    But there are millions of the 1780 ones, minted as late as 1985. That's a pretty long run for one coin from one year...