D11 for reversal processing

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by avortex, Aug 6, 2013.

  1. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Hi!

    I've made my first tests with a home-made D11 developer, following the instructions of "The Darkroom Cookbook": diluted 1:3 and processed between 12-15min at 20ºC.
    Problem: everything looks underexposed, no matter the emulsion and the processing time... I've used Fomapan R100 and Adox Pan-X Reverso (same film as Agfa Scala, probably)
    Anyone else have tried D11 for making slides? Am I doing something wrong?

    Thanks in advance!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2013
  2. Fotoman Professional

    Fotoman Professional Member

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    This is a cool project. In reveersal processes the first develope is key as it really determines what the second developer will have to work with after teh reversal step. To trouble shoot I would recommend running you D11 on a roll as a negative process (Dev, Stop, Fix etc....). Keeping your times as you would for the resersal process then evaluate the results. If all looks good then yoou can assume that the D11 is good.
     
  3. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    I looked at the recipe for D-11, and the problem with it, is fairly diluted and with no silver halide solvent to clear the highlights, resulting in dense slides.

    Look at the formula below it.. #203..

    It's D-76 + Sodium Thiosulphate (a solvent), yet it is used straight including the solvent for only a slightly shorter time.


    D-11 at 1:3 vs D-76 stock + Thiosulphate that is

    1/6th the carbonate akali
    1/6th the metol
    Nearly half the hydroquinone
    No solvent (vs 15g/L of sodium thiosulphate)


    There's no way that D-11 recipe would give good slides without a solvent added, or highly elevated temperatures.


    Get some sodium thiosulphate, or some sodium or potassium thiocyanate to add to it, then you'll see much better results.

    Though I would use the D-67 recipe published myself (D-19 + thiocyanate) but with much reduced sulphite.
     
  4. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Thanks for the responses!

    I'll try D-19 (or D-67) as soon as temperatures go down again (It's REALLY WARM now here in Spain). D-76 is another option, but I assume that the contrast will be reduced...

    I had great succes with Agfa Neutol and Tetenal Dokumol in the past (with and without solvent), but I was trying the D11 developer because it was recommended by David Wood from Dr5. and I wanted to make my own chemicals to have a processing routine without depending on the availability of commercial solutions.
     
  5. Oxleyroad

    Oxleyroad Subscriber

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    Dokumol has worked well for me without solvent with Foma R100 and Shanghai GP3.
     
  6. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Yes, Andy. Dokumol is great, but it tends to be too contrasty with some emulsions...
    By the way, Foma R100 is a thing of beauty both in super-8 and 35mm slides :wink:
     
  7. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    D11 and D8 are very high contrast developers. They are most often used straight rather than diluted. Dan is correct in his statements. You should beef up the first developer and add a solvent.

    PE
     
  8. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Yes, That D11 looks like a bad recipe...

    I'll make experiments with D19 and D67, as well as change the D11 dilution. Thanks a lot!
     
  9. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    Don't dilute the D-11 or dilute very little--say 1:1. increase your temp to 25 centegrade--develop 10 minutes. don't use hypo in the first developer until you start getting decent separation of tones and making progress with regular developers. Experiment first finding strong first developers that work the best with the film/exposure you're using. THEN---only if you need it, go to the hypo in the first developer. it can work fine without the hypo-you just need to give the film a good strong jolt with strong developer at higher temps than used normally with black and white. note that You may need to expose more--reversal film speeds do differ from the negative film speeds since you're using the "other end" of the film curve--too many people think that the speed printed on the box is the speed that it "must be". Nothing is further from the truth.
     
  10. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Thanks! I'll try diluting it just 1:1. Another question: For how long can I keep the D11 after is mixed (not diluted)?
     
  11. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    that depends on howyou keep it. if it starts turning color I'd dump it. meanwhile, store it in full contianers--put marbles in the bottles to take up space if you have to or use plastic and squeeze out the air. I usually only mix developers enough at a time to use what I need--that way it's always fresh. When I mix the gallon packets of d-19 it seems to last a month with no problems. You'll have to experiment to see when it starts turning. Just keep it away from air.

    OH--never reuse developer for first developer--it must be STRONG. you may reuse for 2nd developer and thence to develop negatives other that doesn't require full strength, but always use FRESH, STRONG developer as first developer for reversal.
     
  12. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Thanks a lot! :wink:
     
  13. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Time to update this thread. Last month I continued with my reversal experiments, and after around 20 new tests, I've got some news...

    I played with D11, D19 and D72, mostly to maximize the chemicals that I have. The emulsions were Fomapan R100, Ilford FP4+ and ILFORD HP5+.
    In the beginning, all of them were shot at their nominal speed, and I started with Foma because it's a dedicated slide film.

    About the developers:

    D11: Usable in pure form or diluted 1:1 (best option). More diluted than that loses all its power. I found it comparable with D19, and the results were very similar when diluted 1:1. I found it a bit more neutral than D19 also.

    D19: Excellent diluted 1:1, and a bit contrasty for my taste in pure form, but it gave the best results when not diluted with Ilford Hp5+, processing at 20ºC during 12 minutes.

    D72: Diluted 1:2, is an excellent second developer (I think it gives a little more neutral tones than D19, but I'm not sure). As a first developer is great with Foma R100, but the other solutions have an edge over it.

    About the films:

    FOMAPAN R100: This is by far the most grateful emulsion and (for my taste) the most beautiful B&W. The majority of the tests were OK with it, some better, some worse, but usable results anyway. Best result: D11 1:1 @24ºC for 10 minutes.
    D19 1:1 @24ºC during 10' is a VERY close finalist. A little bit more grainy and less neutral, but almost as beautiful.
    In both cases, you get very good contrast with lots of middle grays. Magic to the eyes, really.

    ILFORD FP4+: The most difficult film. No usable results at 125 ASA, no matter what I try. Using the Osbahr process it gives correct exposure, but I dislike the lack of contrast.

    ILFORD HP5+: Less difficult, but not easy. The Osbahr process gave a washed out image, so the best results came from D19.
    Diluted 1:1 @24ºC during 10' we obtain a contrasted beautiful image, as well as using D19 pure @20ºC during 12 minutes. Differences are minimal, just aesthetic preferences.

    In the end, considering that my usual choice for reversal is Fomapan R100 (both in 35mm and super-8) I decided to use D11 1:1 @24ºC and 10 minutes as my standard process. Then I bracketed the Ilford films to obtain the ideal ASA when processed this way: FP4+ is great at 50 ASA, and HP5+ at 200 ASA.

    The rest of the process is like this:

    BLEACH / 5 minutes:
    The DR5 formula
    Potassium Dichromate 6g
    Sulfuric acid 12ml

    CLEARING / 2 minutes:
    The DR5 formula
    Sodium sulfite 30g
    Sodium Metabisulfite 10g
    Boric acid 1g
    Citric acid 3g

    RE-EXPOSURE / 4 minutes:
    100W lamp at half a meter. 2 minutes per side.

    SECOND DEVELOPER / 4 min:
    D72 1:2

    FIXER / 3min:
    FOMAFIX

    After washing, a hypo cleaning bath, more washing and a bath in Tetenal Mirasol. Done!

    Sorry for not posting any images, but I have no access to a scanner. In any case, results can only be compared in projection or through a light table...
     
  14. Chris Douglas

    Chris Douglas Member

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    I use D-76 plus thio, and have very good results with plus-x. I found using an exposure index of asa 500 works best. Don't forget, overexposing gives thin slides, its backwards.
     
  15. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Sometimes, depending on the processing method, the nominal speed gets reduced when reversing. That's why the Ilford emulsions have a different speed here. At their nominal ASA they are underexposed.
     
  16. richyd

    richyd Member

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    Thanks for the detailed results. Regarding Fomapan R100 it indeed gives beautiful tones, but I have had a roll processed by DR5 and two myself and all showed a problem, in 35mm, with tiny black dots over the frame so don't use it. But I have had great results with Adox Silvermax which gives tones similar to the Scala I have had processed commercially and only wish that Adox would cut 120 rolls of it. I just use Champion Suprol as the developer straight either 1+4 or 1+9 and seems to work fine for most films I have tried.
     
  17. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Champion Suprol 1+4 for reversal...looks interesting! Did you exposed Silvermax at 100ASA?
    I have serious suspicion of it being Agfa Scala. In fact, even the pre-bath turns into the same blue tint.

    Regarding Foma, there has been problems with some batches in the past. White dots in Super-8 film used to be very usual some years ago, but now it seems that is always OK.
     
  18. richyd

    richyd Member

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    Yes, for Silvermax I expose at 100ASA and get best results at that speed. Have tried at 200 and 400 with longer development times and 200 would probably work under certain lighting conditions but at 400 a little too dark but. Might test some more. For Silvermax I use Suprol at 1+4 for 12'. My bleach and clear, happily, are prettty close to what you say are DR5 formulas except for the boric and citric acid in the Clear, I have those so will try.

    The one thing I have found with reversal processing is maintaining consistency, there are so many processes and variables, but I seem to get more even tonal range than my negative processing recently. Would like to get a film I could use at 400ASA in 120 size.
     
  19. avortex

    avortex Member

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    I'll test your Suprol formula in the future, as perhaps with it I will be able to get the nominal speed out of the Ilford Films. (I assume you're working at 20ºC?)
    But at the same time, I'll keep working with home-made developers, because it's the only way to ensure that they will always be for sale :wink:

    Thanks a lot for your info, richyd!
     
  20. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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    I use dektol diluted 1:1 and it works great. try that formula
     
  21. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Thanks, Destroya, but as you can see in my previous post, I've used D-72 in the experiments. Both D11 and D19 were better :wink:
     
  22. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    When dealing with reversal remember that it works backwards. What looks like underexposure (in a negative) is actually overexposure in a slide.
     
  23. avortex

    avortex Member

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    Gerald, that can be true for processing times, but NOT for exposure.
    Overexposing or underexposing goes on the same directions either in negative or reversal...