dark lines and sprocket holes

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by andrewmoodie, May 25, 2007.

  1. andrewmoodie

    andrewmoodie Member

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    These lines appear on some of the frames of a roll of film I processed recently. Is this a processing accident--like not enough chemicals in the tank?--or a faulty camera?

    Andrew
     

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  2. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    bromide drag?
     
  3. Blighty

    Blighty Subscriber

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    looks like it too me!
     
  4. Les McLean

    Les McLean Subscriber

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    Could be that the fixer was near exhaustion. Try refixing in a fresh solution you have nothing to lose.
     
  5. John Bragg

    John Bragg Member

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    Hi Andrew, I have seen this only once before on one of my prints, and in my case, it was localised fogging of the paper, caused by light from the sprocket holes reflecting from an angled surface on the easel I was using.
     
  6. Stoo Batchelor

    Stoo Batchelor Member

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    Hi Andrew

    My very first film I developed had these very same marks on them. I contacted Ilfords technical team and the problem was put down to too much agitation in the first minute, bearing in mind that I was developing their film in Kodak HC110, so the develpoment time was very short.

    In the book 'The Darkroom Handbook' on page74, under Black and white negative errors, it reads;

    Surge marks,
    If your negatives have patches of uneven density adjacent to the sprocket holes, you have agitated the film tank too much. The developer solution has surged through the sprocket holes and created extra development in nearby areas.

    I must mention that also, on the same page, the negatives developed in exhausted developer look very similar, only they will have a veil of fog and yellow-ish gelatin stain (the authors words)

    I hope this helps

    Stoo
     
  7. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Hills or holes?

    Which lined up with the sprocket holes holes and which with the spaces between? It's hard to see it being caused by a faulty camera. I have seen it with stand development by too strong a developer. Is it seen on the other side of the negative as well?
     
  8. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    As I understand it the drag in bromide drag is a drag in
    development resulting is less density. My vote is for
    surge marks, essentially greater local agitation. Dan
     
  9. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

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    It is an agitation problem. You are, I believe, overagitatiting in the developer. Developer is coursing through the sprocket holes and giving you too much density in the areas where the flow is greatest.
    Anscojohn, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA
     
  10. fhovie

    fhovie Subscriber

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    Looks like over vigerous agitation to me.
     
  11. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Where is ir darker?

    Tell me again how we know the negative is darker next to the sprocket holes.
     
  12. Clay2

    Clay2 Member

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    I vote for surge marks from over-agitation, or
    vigorous inverting of developer tank.

    /Clay
     
  13. janjohansson

    janjohansson Member

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    We know it from the width of the darker bands being smaller than the lighter ones,
    since the holes are of less width than the space between the holes.

    Best wishes,

    Jan Johansson
     
  14. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    I took it that a scan of the negative was pictured.
    As mentioned the dark lines are more narrow. Dan
     
  15. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    This is the third thread in less than three weeks that shows uneven development at the film processing stage. All cases have plus density on the positive which would indicate minus development on the neg.
    This seems to be a more common problem .
    Nuetral skys and grey background seem to be affected the worst.
    Photographing 18% grey cards *filling the frame with grey* and then trying different agitation and processing techniques will help solve these problems.
     
  16. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Not that different. As I said, I have had the streaks emanate from the space between the holes. It would be nice to have the testimony of the originator. Not that it is life threatening or even reputation threatening, but that it is possible. I use quite vigorous agitation in a wire reel and have never in over 50 years of doing so have seen streaks such as these. The only time I have seen them is with stand processing with developer that was too concentrated.

    I think if you tried to duplicate these streaks by excessive agitation you would fail. They are too long. Besides, how in the world would one get the developing solution to flow through the holes? I'm trying to visualize the flow pattern, but cannot.
     
  17. percepts

    percepts Member

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    these marks are usually caused by tipping your tank over too slowly and chemicals then pour through the holes. Speed up you inversion.

    rotary processors use constant agitation so how some people think it is too vigorous agitation I have no idea. Very vigorous agitation would not give the well defined lines you have.
     
  18. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    The idea of gentle agitation has come upon the scene rather lately. Before, it was either vigorous or none, as by Mortenson. Now, if one practices gentle agitation and gets uneven development, the theory is that the agitation was not gentle enough. To be sure of that conclusion, I suggest you use violent agitation and see if the problem gets worse. My opinion is that gentle agitation moves the products of oxidation around but does not distribute them evenly, thus causing flow patterns to show in the negative. If you agitate at all, do it thoroughly so as to get a uniform mixture.
    I frequently use a two reel tank with one reel in it free to move and with the tank full. If I were trying to get the surge patterns, this would be the best way, as the reel moves through the liquid with considerable velocity when I invert the tank. Eddy currents around the wire rims should show, I would think. I NEVER have gotten any such evidence. Therefore, my advice is all or nothing, and stand development should only be used with very dilute developers or you will get flow patterns due to local changes in temperature and specific gravity that accompany any chemical reaction.
     
  19. KenM

    KenM Member

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    Absolutely correct.

    If you increase agitation, you increase the 'randomness' of the movement of the developer, thereby avoiding surge marks.
     
  20. Charles Webb

    Charles Webb Member

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    I am certain it's agitation.

    Charlie....................................
     
  21. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Yes, where is the OP in this discussion? A little aside: for
    years and many rolls of 35mm film I used a rotary processor
    with no problems. The tank was a $5.95 Yankee. Dan