'Dazzle-Free Photoflash Photography' - Infrared-Transmitting Coating for Flash Bulbs

'Dazzle-Free Photoflash Photography' - Infrared-Transmitting Coating for Flash Bulbs

  1. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    holmburgers submitted a new resource:

    'Dazzle-Free Photoflash Photography' - Infrared-Transmitting Coating for Flash Bulbs - 'Dazzle-Free Photoflash Photography' - Infrared-Transmitting Coating for Flash Bulbs

    Read more about this resource...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
  2. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,003
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thank you for sharing this! I want to give it a try...but where to find the ingredients?
     
  3. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Some of the dyes appear to be available. Just google them and hit "shopping". Some however are more restricted, like from Sigma-Aldrich, where you have to be with an institution. I'm not sure what the straight-talk is on obtaining things like these.; might be worth asking some of the veterans (PE for instance).
     
  4. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    For Quick (and searchable) Reference

    Infrared Filter Coating for Photoflash Bulbs

    Eosin 2524 - 4 grams
    Tartrazine N.250 - 6 grams
    Coomassie Violet R.S. - 4 grams
    Lissamine Green - 10 grams
    Gelatin (Nelson's Hard) - 200 grams
    Glycerine - 100 mL
    Water to 1 L

    Anti-Dazzle coating for phtoflash bulbs used in conjunction with [panchromatic films]

    Coomassie Violet R.s. - 10 grams
    Gelatine - 200 grams
    Glycerine - 100 mL
    Water to 1 L

    Formula for converting "cellophane" photoflash safety covers into anti-dazzle filters

    Purple Covers:
    Methyl Violet - 4 grams
    Glycerine - 10 mL
    Warm water 200 mL

    Yellow Covers:
    Tartrazine - 4 grams
    Glycerine - 10 mL
    Warm water - 200 mL


    If anyone has sources for these dyes or substitutes, pray tell! The two part formula for the "safety covers" holds promise as these appear to be more sourceable dyes (eBay for the methyl violet and here for the tartrazine). One could dye acetate (or cellophane wrap for that matter) or some other clear plastic for use over modern strobes.

    Someone in a medical discipline might be able to obtain these from a lab or university as many of these dyes are used in biological staining.

    However, if a two part tartrazine & methyl violet stain will work for IR; those two are easily found for less than $15 total and might be the best bet.
     
  5. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

    Messages:
    2,933
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Location:
    Misissauaga
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have a lot of stains gifted to me by a liquidated biochem research company, and some of the names on yoor formulae seem familiar to me but don't map directly to the names I have inventoried. Some dyes have many common names. I will have to search it out. I inventory them by thier CI - colour index, and somewhere have a file than gives all of the cross ref's.

    If you do find them, buy about 1/10th of the formulae and scale back. I know how much dye stain is producted by .5g; and we are not talking about the old screw base units to stain, but more likely M2's and M3's and maybe 25's, and an whole lot could be done with a 100mL of bath solution.

    Oh, and be sure to have a large jug of bleach on hand to clean up with, and wear a mouth and nose mask, or you will be sneezing stained boogers for days. Don't ask how I learned the last point.
     
  6. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Mike, thanks for the pointers, especially the nasal advice :wink:

    If you look in the article the dyes have I.C.I. written after them +plus+ a number which I omitted because I didn't know better... so is that international color index? Those numbers might help you make a match.

    I'm sure that many other dyes could be used but that these guys found the most 'perfect' combination, but that's not to say that others wouldn't be suitable. A source with dye transmission values could help us create our own concoction.

    Please feel free to report back once you have a look at your stains.

    Cheers!
     
  7. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

    Messages:
    2,933
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Location:
    Misissauaga
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Before we go too far on this, consider wasting an e-6 slide film.
    Process it without exposing it. The result is a 'black' film.
    I undertand it is substantially transparent to infrared.

    Why not make a 4.5" square filter by taping two sections of this film side by side, slightly overlapped.
    Then make a cardboard holder to fit a folding fan reflector to allow the light from the falshbulb to go through this filter?

    The other variable we must contend with in using this 70 odd year old article, is that I am pretty sure it is talking uncoated flashbulbs.
    There is a reference to dying a cellophane safety bag for placing over the flash bulb. I had never previously heard of such a device, but it makes sense).

    AFAIK all 'modern' ie from the 60's to perhaps 80's flash have a coating, and the B variation ones have a blue tint to the coating to boot to yield a daylight favoured output from the flashbulb's luminous emission.

    So it is possible that the amount of glycerine and liquid could be cut, because the plastic on the lamp only must be dyed.

    The original 'recipes' would presumably work best with non B coated bulbs.

    Concentrated dyes are unbelivably dense. I was consolidating two partially full methyl violet bottles to cut down on the differernt dye stuff bottles after initailly doing an inventory of them.

    The emptied bottle had but a faint dust on the inside and dust inside the cap as well. I placed them in the bottom of the laundry sink, and turned a gentle stream of cold water onto them. A vivid purple liquid resulted, and continued to be produced for over a minute, from just the action of the dust.
     
  8. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

    Messages:
    2,933
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Location:
    Misissauaga
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I think the ICI reference is the name that the origainal dye manufacturer called the dyes. Modern CI number are a 5 digit identifier. The organic chemistry of dyes is far beyond my comprehesion, but it makes fascinating reading.
     
  9. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    That's true what you say about the coatings on newer bulbs. The coating might accept the dye w/o any gelatin whatsoever.

    I'm not sure on the use of slide film for the flash. I'm personally more interested in the violet stain for panchromatic materials just because I don't mind if the flash is totally invisible, just not "dazzling"! (haha, I love their use of that word)

    Coupled with a flashbulb and you've still probably got a sizable guide number. Alternatively, taping a Wratten 34, 34A or 35 gel over a strobe would probably have the same effect, based off of the transmission curves.

    I might try to get some methyl violet on eBay, but the supplier says that they reserve the right to ask for your company affiliation, so the same roadblocks might apply even to eBay. But who knows...
     
  10. st3ve

    st3ve Member

    Messages:
    85
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2010
    Location:
    Da Gulf
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Probably because it can mutate DNA and cause cancer. And apparently this stuff leeches into the water supply....

    :munch:
     
  11. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Well, that certainly sucks. But minute quantities, responsibly handled, aren't a problem. For every gram of the stuff I can't buy, some large industry is probably buying kilos of it and disposing of it improperly.
     
  12. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

    Messages:
    2,933
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Location:
    Misissauaga
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have about 100 g of the Methyl, and lesser amounts of other dyes and have mailed dyes to the US for people from here without any apparent problems. PM your postal address, and I will mail you a few 5g or less little jars or dyes to experiment with. It might take me til Christmas though. My wife and son are rehearsing for a soon to open play, and I am left to work and juggle a lot of the household tasks (more than my typically equitable share) for a little while.
     
  13. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

    Messages:
    2,933
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Location:
    Misissauaga
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Oh - another idea - Wilton paste food colouring is mostly a concentrated food class dye set in glycerine. Not sure about the spectral performance, but they should be widely available.
     
  14. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks Mike, PM sent.

    Also, for others interested, it appears that a good number of dyes can be had on eBay at reasonable prices from various lab liquidators. You might not have the pick of the litter, but wait long enough and I bet the right dyes come around. Same goes for sensitizing dyes, dye-imbition dyes, and all the like.
     
  15. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

    Messages:
    2,933
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Location:
    Misissauaga
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I was readng Mees 'From Glass Plates to Ektachome' on the weekend (Thanks for the loan, David William White), and there is a chapter on sensitizing dyes.

    There is a reference to a paper that Mees published in some scholarly journal in 1920 about the absorptive propoerties of many dyes of interest for photo sensitising.

    The organic chemistry discussions on thier synthesis flies miles over my head though.

    Chis - I have packed 6 small plastic bottles of different dyes and a number of nose and mouth surgical masks in a bubble envelope; all that remains is to get to a postal outlet for the customs declaration label and postage.

    One of the things I tried to send you was an effectve yellow. Apparently yellow is not a popular biological stain, because I have lots of outher colurs, but short on yellow. The actual yellow I had is closer to orange, but there is a red dye included that is an indicator as well, and at moderate pH in my tap water is very yellow.

    I hope you have fun playing when you get these. Be warned that from my past experience with shipping to/from the midwest US from where I am there seems to be postal black hole that makes packages take 6 weeks.
     
  16. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Mike, thanks, I can't wait!

    Any chance you could scan that reference paper? That might be a very useful resource. Perhaps I can trot down to my local biblioteque and check it out myself.
     
  17. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

    Messages:
    2,933
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Location:
    Misissauaga
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    One of the references is circa 1909 'an atlas of absorption spectra' cek mees. I thought there was one circa 192's but cannot find it via usual web search methods.
     
  18. STEREOKODAK

    STEREOKODAK Member

    Messages:
    8
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Location:
    Springfield,
    Shooter:
    35mm
    IR flash bulbs

    I actually have a couple boxes of IR flashbulbs (I use flashbulbs). This article pretty much confirms what I thought. They are regular flashbulbs with a black coating that only allows IR to pass. That being said, I guess a regular flashbulb would do as well in IR photography-just not all stealthy and cool-looking.
     
  19. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

    Messages:
    4,423
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    Rochester NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Color Indices

    Lissamine Green = either CI Acid Green 50 or CI Acid Green 16
    Methyl Violet = C.I. Basic Violet 1
    Eosin 2524 = C.I. Acid Red 87, D&C Red No. 22 [probable]
    Tartrazine = CI Acid Yellow 23
    Coomassie Violet R.S. = CAS: 74968-14-2 [the index number might be CI 24200]
    Coomassie Blue = CAS: 78642-64-5, C.I. Acid Blue 92, Wool Fast Blue R

    These were provided by a confidant who is better versed in dyes than I.