Delta 400 anyone tried it in DS-10 or DS-12

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by bogeyes, Jun 15, 2005.

  1. bogeyes

    bogeyes Member

    Messages:
    291
    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Location:
    uk
    Just bought a 35mm bulk roll of Ilford Delta 400, can anyone recommend a developer that I can mix up myself, Ryuji Suzuki' DS-10 and DS-12 look interesting so does Sandy Kings Pyrocat hd, any thoughts?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2005
  2. Claire Senft

    Claire Senft Member

    Messages:
    3,242
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Location:
    Milwaukee, W
    Shooter:
    35mm
    The only developer of the group with which I have experience is the Pyrocat HD. I have a vivid imagination but I can not envision a real life developer that is materially superior that has the qualities I desire: ease of use with a wide variety of films, flexible with a variety of techniques, acutance Vs grain, nice gradation, expense. Of course the gradation and acutance vs grain are the most important.

    HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!
     
  3. craigclu

    craigclu Subscriber

    Messages:
    815
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2002
    Location:
    NW Wisconsin
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    DS-10 seems ideal with Delta 400. I'm making myself consume some outrageous amounts of HP5+ in my freezer (quite happily, though) and plan to return to some more focused use and testing of the D400 and DS-10. The few rolls I've done printed easily and beautifully and I can see using it as a "go to" combination. You can test it with phenidone but if you need to track down a supply source for Dimezone-S, one source is TechChem
     
  4. psvensson

    psvensson Member

    Messages:
    625
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I can provide the missing part of the puzzle: I tried Delta 400 in DS-12, and I liked it a lot. It gave very good sharpness without excessive grain. Better than Rodinal and FX-1 derivatives.

    My standard developer for Delta 400, though, is closer to DS-10. I find that the film keeps its sharpness in fine-grain high-sulfite developers.
     
  5. bogeyes

    bogeyes Member

    Messages:
    291
    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Location:
    uk
    Sven, can you put me in the ball park with a dev. time/ temp speed rating, agitation etc.dev. in a small paterson tank, thankyou
     
  6. bogeyes

    bogeyes Member

    Messages:
    291
    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Location:
    uk
    Claire, can you give me a starting point : dilution, temp, agitation, film speed, how well does the pyrocat hd do in overcast conditions? Thanks.
     
  7. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

    Messages:
    2,027
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have no idea whatsoever...but can say there are a number of users in this forum who swear by delta 400 in perceptol 1+1, and sulk that sheet is no longer made. Peceptol being a high sulphite dev, as least in 1+0, less os 1+1...
     
  8. psvensson

    psvensson Member

    Messages:
    625
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I was using DS-12 without the salicylic acid. Approximate times:

    35mm: 72F 11 mins.
    120: 73F 16 mins.
     
  9. psvensson

    psvensson Member

    Messages:
    625
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I should have said "medium sulfite" rather than "high." I use 50g/liter, which is the same as D-76 1:1 and probably close to Perceptol 1:1.
     
  10. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

    Messages:
    3,879
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Location:
    Southern Cal
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have not tried DS-12 with Delta 400, but it works very well with both Delta 100 and TMax 400.

    I am using a modified version of DS-12 as a one shot developer without salycilic acid and only 2 grams per liter of sodium sulfite.

    I intend to try DS-12 with salycilic acid - am waiting for the shipment to arrive.

    I should add that my first choice developer would be Pyrocat-HD since I normally develop for Azo contact printing.
     
  11. Claire Senft

    Claire Senft Member

    Messages:
    3,242
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Location:
    Milwaukee, W
    Shooter:
    35mm
    bogeyes I can do no better than to refer you to the unblinkingeye website. Sandy King, the inventor of this concoction has written a extremely fine article on it. For myself, I rarely use a film faster than ISO 100. I have used Pyrocat HD as a regular developer, as a semi-stand developer and as a stand developer. It has worked wonderfully well in all three applications. I do not do any rotary processing so I can offer nothing from personal experience except my belief that Sandy King devising this formula particularly for rotary development to improve on PMK says he has been successful and I doubt him not.

    The film I have used it with the most is with Arista 50+. With a difference between lit and shadowed areas of 3 stops for condenser enlargement I do as follows: I expose the film at an ISO of 80...my film is latensified so this is too high a film speed to use ordinarily...try ISO 32. I presoak in tap water for 5 minutes with agitation. While developing the film I agitate continously..lifting a rod slowly up and down with the reel attached for one minute...without and twisting motion..for one minute. Then I allow the film to remain in the developer for another 31 minutes without any agitation. Stop and dry and wash the film. I develop one roll of 36 exposures of 135 at a time. Sometimes I want to develop more at a time and I use a larger container doubling or tripling my volume. For instance: My darkroom is sufficiently dark to allow developing in open and transparent tanks. I have some inexpensive plastic containers obtained at Walmart that will hold three liters. One problem with a container so large that the reel is not close to the inside edge of the container is the possibility of having your film unwound and becoming scratched. I put a rubber band around the outside wire prongs of the stainless reel to prevent this. My developer is mixed as follows:

    I liter of water
    4 ml of Pyrocat HD
    3 grams of washing soda...sodium carbonate.
    (no Pyrocat HD B is mixed)

    The original Pyrocat HD formula part B calls for 750 grams of potassium carbonate in a liter of water...or the equivalent in a smaller portion. Sodium carbonate can be used as a direct replacement except for one problem..you can not dissolve 750grams of sodium carbonate into a liter of water..it will become super saturated well before getting close to this concentration. You can mix a weaker solution of sodium carbonate and put proportionally more of it into the part B. Part B Pyrocat HD is normally used in the same concentration as part A. Potassium cabonate is not commonly availble. When purchased from even a inexpensive suppier it is much more expensive than washing soda which is sodium carbonate, I find it no more time consuming to measure out and to stir into solution 3 grams of washing soda than I would take to measure out Pyrocat HD part B. Washing soda is very inexpensive. Go to the local supermarket and look for it in the laundry supply section.

    Here is what I recommend for a quick test. Load your 400 speed film. Rate it at 250-320. Measure the difference between lit and shadowed area outside. On a bright sunny day with approx. front lighting and the sun unobscured by cloud cover this is normally 2.7 to 3 stops difference in my back yard. No need to take my word for it come on over and I will show you. I measure the light in the lit are with an incident meter pointed at the camera. I step into the shadow area just enough that the the dome of the meter is fully in shadow. Since your are reading a shadow set your meter to asa 500 to 640 and take a reading. If you do not own an incident meter take both readings from a gray card. Expose you negatives from the shadow reading taken at the inflated film speed.

    You are only taking the lit reading to determine your lighting ratio. This is of importance so that you know how to expose and develop your film when confronted with the same conditions in the future. Expose a full roll of film. to the same conditions. Use a tripod with the mirror locked up, with a good quality lens near optimum aperture so that you get very sharp negatives.

    Make up the witches brew that I have listed. Cut your film into 5 pieces and store in a light tight place. Develop your first test for 45minutes using the mix and method described above. Was and dry your film. Print a negative on your usual paper of the contrast character you prefer. Too flat? Get out another piece of your test and develop longer. To contrasty. Make your second test less. If you are using something like the 400 Tmax or Delta 400 film try a 10% change from your first test for your subsequent test if the difference is slight to moderate. If the difference is more than that make a more substantial change. With a film such as Trix or HP5 if would be inclined to use twice as much change. How is your shadow detail?

    Since you are working with a staining developer and may not have previous experience in doing so the appearance of the negatives can give a misleading impression of their printing characteristics. The mask will affect the contrast of a graded paper differently than they will for a VC paper. By the time you get done with your five tests..at the most..you will, I hope, be right on target. Then you will be ready to try a more contrasty or less contrasty scene in the same manner. Since you are working with a higher speed film which needs additional development you may wish to try a 50% increase in solution strength. Ie 4 ml and 3 grams may be marginal with a 400 speed film.

    God, those are really some sharp negatives aren't they. The grain is nice too isn't it. Repeat after me: "Thank you Sandy"
     
  12. bogeyes

    bogeyes Member

    Messages:
    291
    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Location:
    uk
    Thank you Sandy, and thank you Claire for such a detailed and informative response.
     
  13. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

    Messages:
    2,725
    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Location:
    Woonsocket,
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Another source is Digital Truth. The last I checked, their prices were almost identical for Dimezone-S, but if you need to order other things, one or the other might end up having an advantage.
     
  14. Ryuji

    Ryuji Member

    Messages:
    1,416
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I use Delta 400 in DS-10 1+1 and DS-12. Both work very nicely b ut I prefer DS-10 1+1 better for this film.
     
  15. Ryuji

    Ryuji Member

    Messages:
    1,416
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you prepare solution immediately before use, I suggest to find my DS-2 formula and use it instead. DS-2 is photographically nearly identical to DS-12 and it doesn't use salicylic acid or triethanolamine.

    If you make a mod like you said, I suggest to at least check the solution pH. It should be in 9.75 to 9.80 range at 25C.