Developer working solution or dilution

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by TareqPhoto, Aug 4, 2011.

  1. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I bought 2 developers but i can't understand what is written on the bottles, so i will ask here, and i apologize if this question was asked to death.

    When it is written, to make 1Gallon or 2 Gallon and so, what does that mean? Should i mix the entire bottle liquid for that written to make quantity or just i dilute as necessary until i can reach that written quantity? So if i have one bottle that has written the developer to make 1US Gallon, how much i should dilute to have that amount at the end? I had one of those developer before but it was written to make 5L, but i was using just the diluted solution and didn't mix the whole liquid for 5L, any guidance here please???
     
  2. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,004
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    "To make" means that is the final solution volume once everything is mixed according to the instructions.

    Comparing the amount of concentrate to the final volume gives you a ratio. Sometimes it is possible to apply that ratio to make smaller batches of some solution. We do this with liquid fixer and developer concentrates all the time, when we make, say, only one liter of working solution from a bottle that says "to make" ten liters." Other times it is not possible or advisable. For example, if the amounts are too small to precisely measure, you would not want to do it. Also, for best results, it is not OK with pre-mixed powders at any time, only with liquid chemicals. This is because one cannot assure uniform distribution of all the ingredients in a bag of pre-mixed powdered chemicals.
     
  3. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    16,793
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    What developers are they?

    In most cases, the "to make X gallons/liters" phrase on the bottles isn't a mixing instruction, but rather a clue as to how much value you are getting when you buy the bottle.

    Most bottles also have mixing and dilution instructions printed on them. If they don't, it probably means that there are a variety of options available, and there isn't enough room on the bottle to describe them all (Kodak HC110 is a good example of that).

    Most likely there is a web document which covers mixing plus a lot of other issues.

    In general though, 2F/2F's comments above are correct.
     
  4. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    THank you very much for your answer but i couldn't understand it well, so is that mean i have to mix all the dev liquid in the bottle for that given "To make" and divided them into smaller batches bottles? or just i dilute the liquid as needed?
     
  5. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    TMAX liquid
    HC110

    I bought 2 bottles of each, so i have 4 total bottles.

    On one is written to make 1 US Gallon and the other dev written to make 2 US Gallons, what i should do?
     
  6. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,004
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    In this particular case, I'd mix them as needed. You will waste less that way.

    You can mix up the T-Max right before use. Now that you mention it, I've never actually seen anyone mix up the whole gallon at once.

    The HC-110 can be mixed into small batches of stock solution by using a 1:3 ratio (25 percent syrup and 75 percent water). I use stock solution as an intermediate dilution, making batches of one pint at a time. But some people skip the stock solution entirely and mix straight from the syrup. The easiest way to do this is to make U.S. quart of dilution B working solution. All you have to do is mix 31 oz. of water and 1 oz. of syrup. No syringes required.

    (The word "syrup" is a nickname for "concentrate.")
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
  7. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    16,793
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    There is a veritable library of Kodak technical publications on the internet:

    This link will help you find many of them:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/chemistry/filmBWmain.jhtml?pq-path=13318/13629/14024

    in particular, here is the link for the technical information (including mixing directions) publication for T-Max developer:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j86/j86.pdf

    HC-110 has its own publication as well. But before you look at it, you need to understand that it was intended to be usable in a very wide variety of commercial and other applications. To accomplish that, it was designed to be used in a wide variety of dilutions. Most of the `standard` dilutions are designated by letters (A, B, E, F etc.). The most widely used dilution is dilution B which is accomplished by adding 31 parts water to 1 part of syrup (concentrate).

    2F/2Fs post explains the two ways of getting to that working dilution (either making an intermediate 1 + 3 stock solution, and then further diluting the stock 1 + 7, or going straight from concentrate to working by adding 31 parts water to 1 part of syrup (concentrate)).

    As a near beginner, when you read the following it is probably best to stick with dilution B, and for now ignore the information about the other dilutions:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/chemistry/bwFilmProcessing/hc110.jhtml?pq-path=14033
     
  8. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have all the data sheets of the developers i already have, and i read them all but not the whole of the sheet [as i can't understand everything i read anyway].

    Well, i was thinking to take parts of the dev to dilute with water rather than dumping all the dev with water for that final volume, not sure what will be the difference but i think i prefer to use the dev diluted one by one, but i really can't understand about the correct measurements when diluting, the bottle is coming with net vol. of 757mL and it is to make 1 US Gallon [about 3.85L], if i dilute 1 part of that with 4 parts of water then i will not get full 1G, not even closer, so am i missing something?
     
  9. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    What i don't understand mostly is what is the difference between the stock solution and the concentrate?
     
  10. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    16,793
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm assuming you are talking about HC-110.

    The concentrate is very concentrated, so you don't need very much of it to develop a single roll of film.

    The concentrate is also really thick, so it can be hard to accurately measure and use very small amounts of it.

    For that reason, traditionally the instructions recommended that you first dilute a workable quantity of the concentrate into a stock solution (1 +3 probably, but see note below), and then just before you develop the film, dilute that stock solution further (1 + 7) to create your working solution.

    You could dilute the entire bottle of the HC-110 into a single largish bottle of stock solution, but you probably don't want to, because while the concentrate will last a very, very, very long time, the stock solution will only last 1 to 3 months.

    So most people either:

    1) make a smaller amount of the stock solution up, and then try to use that smaller amount up before it goes bad; or
    2) use small syringes or other special tools to each time measure the small amount of concentrate required per roll and then dilute it directly to the working solution.

    As an example, say your tank requires 300 ml of working solution to develop a single roll of 135 film. For simplicity, I'll round that up to 320 ml.

    If you mix directly from concentrate to working solution, you will need to accurately measure and dispense 10 ml of concentrate and then add 310 ml of water to arrive at 320 ml of HC-110 dilution B working solution.

    Alternatively, if you decide to dilute the concentrate in stages (first to a stock solution, and then later to a working solution) you:
    a) first dilute a portion of the the concentrate to enough stock to fill a convenient sized bottle. If that bottle is, for example, 500 ml, you would make your (1 + 3) stock solution by putting 125 ml of concentrate in the 500 ml bottle and then adding 375 ml of water to fill it; then
    b) when it comes time to develop your film, for each roll of that 135 film, you just need to further dilute enough of that stock solution to 320 ml (in our example) of working solution. That is a 1 + 7 dilution - take 40 ml from the stock solution bottle and dilute it with 280 ml of water, for a total volume of 320 ml.

    NOTE: I need to warn you about one further thing. HC-110 comes in two different packagings. Most of us are familiar with the US packaging, and the examples and ratios referred to above and in the Kodak publication I linked to are based on that. There is, however, another European packaging and that HC-110 isn't as concentrated as the US packaging. As far as I am aware, the European packaging isn't labeled in a way that indicates it makes up a quantity of US gallons. You need to determine, however, which packaging you have before determining how much it is to be diluted.
     
  11. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks!

    Can you make those calculating measurements for 500ml or 1L please? Because i shoot only medium format 120 and also large format [4x5], no 135mm there at all yet.

    Well, my HC-110 is a "US" version because i bought it from a "US" online store.
     
  12. Ian C

    Ian C Member

    Messages:
    724
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    T-Max Developer

    We discussed using T-Max Developer in July 2011 here:

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/93502-replenishing-regular-t-max-developer.html

    The smaller bottle of T-max is 1/5 gallon. You’d mix it as

    1/5 gallon of concentrate + 4/5 gallon water = 1 gallon of working strength.


    You can mix any volume of working strength wanted at 1:4 as

    1 part concentrate + 4 parts water = 5 parts working strength developer.


    For a liter of working strength developer you need
    200ml concentrate + 800ml water = 1000ml

    For 1/2 liter of working strength you need
    100ml concentrate + 400ml water = 500ml
     
  13. Lee L

    Lee L Member

    Messages:
    3,247
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    This page: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/ has metric measures for making the final dilutions from the concentrated syrup.

    The standard ratios may seem odd at first, but some are designed for easy measurements in ounces. If you add the ratios, you come up with ounces in standard U.S. measures like pints, quarts, gallons, etc.

    1:15 = 16 parts for 16 ounces in a pint (covers 2 35mm steel reels)
    1:31 = 32 parts for 32 ounces in a quart (covers 4 35mm steel reels)
    etc.

    Dilutions C, D, F, and G are multiples of 20 when you count total parts:
    1:19 = 20 parts
    1:39 = 40 parts
    etc.

    You can make up your own, easier to measure standard dilutions in metric that are near the Kodak dilution ratios, and then make the small adjustments to time that will probably be necessary for your particular conditions even if you went exactly to recommendations. Many people do that. You just need to be consistent and be sure you have the minimum necessary concentrate per film area.

    Lee
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    16,793
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Here are the numbers re-jigged for 500 ml.

    As an example, say your tank requires 500 ml of working solution to develop a single roll of 120 film.

    If you mix directly from concentrate to working solution, you will need to accurately measure and dispense 16 ml of concentrate and then add 484 ml of water to arrive at 500 ml of HC-110 dilution B working solution.

    For this example, you don't have to be quite that accurate - 16 ml of concentrate plus 490 ml of water should be good enough.

    Alternatively, if you decide to dilute the concentrate in stages (first to a stock solution, and then later to a working solution) you:
    a) first dilute a portion of the the concentrate to enough stock to fill a convenient sized bottle. If that bottle is, for example, 500 ml, you would make your (1 + 3) stock solution by putting 125 ml of concentrate in the 500 ml bottle and then adding 375 ml of water to fill it; then
    b) when it comes time to develop your film, for each roll of that 120 film, you just need to further dilute enough of that stock solution to 500 ml (in our example) of working solution. That is a 1 + 7 dilution - take 62.5 ml from the stock solution bottle and dilute it with 437.5 ml of water, for a total volume of 500 ml.

    For the last example, you don't have to be quite that accurate - 60 ml of stock plus 440 ml of water should be good enough.

    Once you get comfortable with dilution B, you can ask us about experimenting with more dilute options. Those options permit squeezing a few more rolls of developed film out of each bottle of HC-110.

    In addition to the Covingtoninnovations site referred to above, there are other resources that refer to other dilutions. Jason Brunner's site is one of them:

    http://www.jasonbrunner.com/hc110.html
     
  16. yeknom02

    yeknom02 Member

    Messages:
    308
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Location:
    State Colleg
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    You probably have all the advice you need by now, but I would like to state from experience that mixing the "stock" solution of HC-110 is indeed a bad idea. While it is great to have a thinner (less viscous) liquid to measure out before each developing session, I got through maybe half of the stock solution before it expired. Only then did I learn that it was possible to keep the syrup undiluted, and so my second bottle is still going strong.
     
  17. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,004
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I disagree, heartily.

    First of all, the stock solution lasts for a long time. I have used it 8 months old in a half full bottle with perfectly normal results, even for pushing. I was just curious what would happen. I knew it would at least give me something, so I went for it. Based on the negs and prints, the stock had not even begun to show the slightest visible sign of degradation under those conditions. My Delta 3200 at EI 4000 looked just like all my other Delta 3200 at EI 4000.

    Second, the stock need not be mixed up using the entire bottle of concentrate. As I stated above, I mix up a pint of stock at a time, and split it between two bottles.

    When using stock solution, slight measuring errors are theoretically less pronounced in terms of results on the film. Slight variations in measurement are magnified when mixing straight from the concentrate. Probably okay with a runny developer like Rodinal, which doesn't really stick to things or hold bubbles, but HC-110 concentrate is gooey. And with stock solution, there is less waste than with using syringes for the concentrate, because less stuff sticks and needs to be rinsed down the drain when you clean your measuring tools. Finally, working from stock takes a good deal less time when making up the working solution (no cleaning syringes of gooey stuff), and you can follow Kodak's dilution charts without doing any math.

    There are decent arguments for both methods, but the statement that "mixing the 'stock' solution of HC-110 is indeed a bad idea" is a blanket overstatement.
     
  18. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

    Messages:
    7,470
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Pour the entire contents into a bucket and add water to make a gallon. If you want a half-gallon, use half the bottle and add water to the half-gallon mark, and so on.
     
  19. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    OK, i have to read all the links you people gave me in addition to your posts, because i feel i will have something as a mistake in measure working solutions, i prefer the second option which is to have a working solution from a stock solution not from the concentrate, but i don't know how much i should take from that concentrate bottle for smaller syrups working solutions, so i take for 1L then use that until i run out or go with 1/5 gallon or just go for the tank size? also i don't know what i will do if i want to develop 120 and then large format which is 500mL and 1L[according to my sheets tanks], so it means i will run 1.5ml time to time between 120 rolls and 4x5 sheets.

    In fact TMAX is almost i understand it, but still HC110 dilutions is puzzling me a bit, the concentrate bottle itself is not 1/5L or 1/4 Gallon, so i really don't know how they prepared that concentrate solution bottle, it is written net liquid is 473mL, to make 2Gallons or 7.6L, that means like i have to dilute it 16 times for working solutions to be nearly 2 Gallons.
     
  20. Nige

    Nige Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,125
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2002
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    As far as worrying about using every last drop... it ain't going to happen. You'll never use a 500ml bottle of concentrated developer, measure out say 50 serves of 10ml... the last one isn't going to be 10ml. The 49 prior measurings will not be that accurate (unless your using labortory grade pipettes, etc), not to mention who knows if the manufacturer put in 499ml, 501ml or 502ml initially.

    thank [insert chosen deity] that B&W film development isn't that fussy. Being consistent is more important than mixing the exact manufacturers recommended dilution. Pick a method, measure volumes consistently (use the same equipment), use a thermometer for temp control and record what you've done as you go. It will be fine.
     
  21. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I bought some labs measuring devices, i have friends who are working for laboratories equipments, so they can provide me what i need, most of the cylindrical tubes and measuring cups even the thermometer they brought for me, i asked them to bring a scale to measure crystal/powdered chemicals to mix for making a developer [Caffenol, they even brought the chemicals for me except the coffee], so i can try to be as much as accurate when possible, sure i may miss up something there but i will not make that as standard/usual behave to miss up things, ofcourse 1-4mL will not make that much big different once or twice, once i know how it is working then next time it will be something normal used to do, but as first time i have to be more careful or accurate as possible then i don't have many issues about solutions/syrups/drops,..etc.
     
  22. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    16,793
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The HC-110 bottle is 473 ml, which is the same as:
    - 16 US ounces, which is the same as
    - 1 US pint, which is the same as
    - 1/2 US quart, which is the same as
    - 1/8 US gallon.

    When the bottle says "makes 2 US gallons" of working solution, it is actually referring to dilution A, which you probably don't want to use.

    It is dilution B that most of the published development times refer to.

    Your 16 US ounce (1/8 US gallon) bottle will make 4 US gallons of dilution B (1 + 31) working solution if you dilute every last bit of it accurately.

    That is just over 15 liters.

    That means one bottle is enough to develop 30 rolls of 120, if you are only developing 1 roll of 120 in each 500 ml of dilution B working solution.

    Alternatively, that means one bottle is enough to develop 15 sheets of film if you are only developing one sheet in each liter of dilution B working solution.

    There are techniques that permit you to get more rolls out of each bottle, but I'd suggest you work with these volumes and this dilution at first.
     
  23. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thank you very much!

    This clarified things a bit more, so i have to forget about what "To make" write on the bottle and just dilute for dilution B which will give me more liquids there to work with, interesting, i also want to stick with that and not looking for another methods to get more rolls, for 1 bottle to develop up to 30 rolls is more than enough for me, i have 2 bottles so that means about 60 rolls or say almost 30 sheets, well, for this year and next year i don't think i will go over 60-100 films, so i think i will have one or two developers running fine for me before i use the other developers, now should i start with TAMX or HC110 if i will shoot soon? :tongue:
     
  24. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    16,793
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Two questions - how are you processing your sheet film and is it 4 x 5?

    Unless your developing process limits you to single sheets in each litre (tray developing), you should understand that a liter of dilution B working solution has enough chemical capacity to develop a lot more than a single 4 x 5 sheet - in fact, with careful technique, the right equipment and enough practice, you could develop as many as twenty 4 x 5 sheets in the same litre before it would be exhausted.
     
  25. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Really i don't know which processing of sheets i will use yet, i started a thread here about it and got many many posts, but what i see is that i may avoiding that tray developing, if i will use the daylight tank then it will take 1L, if i will try to get that MOD so i have to buy Paterson Multi-3 reels tank which will take almost 1L as well, or go with BTZS tubes which it will take very minimal chemicals [i really don't know what volume it is recommended for that], so whatever methods i will use i will be sure i will have enough chemicals there, in fact i am also going to use Caffenol as this is cheap and i have the chemicals to prepare and it will not be big deal if i waste it, most those Kodak/Ilford chemicals i have to buy overseas which is costly with shipping and the restrictions for chemicals.

    Maybe i have to divide the chemicals into two parts, one for 120 and the other for LF sheets [4x5], then i will not be confused about volumes remaining for each.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
  26. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    16,793
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you use something like BTZS tubes that permit use of minimal amounts of chemicals, you can use the following rules of thumb to determine how much HC-110 dilution B needs to be used:

    1) for 120 film, use an amount that is the greater of:
    a) the amount needed to cover the reels in the tank, or
    b) 192 ml (200 ml is what I would use); and
    2) for 4 x 5 sheet film, use an amount that is the greater of:
    a) the amount required by the tanks/tubes/reels to ensure all of the sheets are in contact with or covered by the developer, or
    b) 48 ml (50 ml is what I would use) times the number of 4 x 5 sheets being processed.

    In most cases it is the requirements of the tanks or tubes you are using that set the minimum volume, but not always.

    You shouldn't have to make up separate amounts of stock for 120 and 4 x 5. You will, however, most likely need to use different amounts of working solution because of the differing amounts required by the different tanks and reels or tubes.

    If you buy the MOD insert, you can of course use the same Paterson tank and Paterson reels to develop your 120 film.

    Good luck, and I hope you have fun!