Developing by Infrared inspection

Discussion in 'Darkroom Equipment' started by livemoa, Oct 12, 2003.

  1. livemoa

    livemoa Member

    Messages:
    372
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Location:
    Was New Zeal
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    OK, I already do the quick view under the green safelight trick. Have heard about doing it by infrared. Thought that would be expensive. Had a look on the net and started to wonder (Its been a wet weekend here).

    What I want to know, has anybody done it using the infrared goggles that you can get? Some seem to be as low as $70-100 with a built in infrared light source. I know that a few years ago it was $1,000's, but was thinking, can you apply Moores law of computer's to infrared viewers?

    Any way, let me know what you all think.
     
  2. dr bob

    dr bob Member

    Messages:
    871
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Annapolis, M
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Way too complicated for me. I used them in the military and found them to be useless for close work.

    However, your post gave me an idea: Why not develop IR film by inspection under yellow/green light? Anyone tried this? Considering the response spectrum I'll bet it would work, at least for 4x5 and maybe 120.

    Truly, dr bob.
     
  3. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    9,281
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2002
    Location:
    Bergen, Norw
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Yes, I have. Green light, MACO 820c 4x5", Pyrocat-HD 1:1:60, no fogging. I didn't turn on the light until four minutes into the development, then kept it on as the first sheets were developed enough already (exposure by guesswork). Last one was done after 11 minutes, still no fogging.
     
  4. mvjim

    mvjim Member

    Messages:
    84
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2003
    Location:
    New York Cit
    At our lab we use infrared inspection and it has saved many a clients work from under and/or over development. We picked up a pair of Russian surpplus about 8 years ago. We highly recommend the use of this method as even reading 35mm film is simple. The problem we had with using the green safelight (as most have) is that the amount of time you have to view the negative is quite short and takes ALOT of practice to be able to recognize just what you are looking at ( esp w/ roll film) With the infrared inspection you can be viewing the negatives from start to finish w/o any chance of fog. The goggles ran us around $600.00 US and uses two AAA batteries.
     
  5. Loose Gravel

    Loose Gravel Member

    Messages:
    921
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2003
    Location:
    Santa Barbar
    FYI

    The word 'infrared' gets tossed around quite a bit, but literally means beyond red or the wavelengths of light that are longer than red or greater than about 700 nm (less for 'red color blindness'). Usually, the military is interested in the middle wave infrared (MWIR) and the long wave infrared (LWIR) as these bands don't require illumination. The near infrared is what would be handy in the darkroom, from 700nm to about 1100nm is the most common of the near infrared. This is a very economically band to see, because all consumer electronic imagers (digital cameras, videocams,etc.) are capable of seeing in this band because they use silicon sensors. They actually see better in the near IR than in the visible. However, to make everything look right in your pictures, the manufacturer places an IR cutoff filter over the detector that stops all the 700 nm and beyond light from hitting the detector. If this can be removed (it looks like a light blue filter), any of the electronic cameras can see IR. Of course there is a focus shift in the lens and to see in the dark, you would need an IR source which would either be a tungsten source with a good IR pass filter or an IR light emitting diode. The IR LED is probably cheaper, but I don't know.

    I think there are a few cameras out there that don't have the IR cutoff filter in them. They would be BW surveillance cameras. There is one in most ATM behind that black square. The lack of this filter would give increased sensitivity. There was some talk about these cameras a few years back and their ability to see through some fabrics.
     
  6. livemoa

    livemoa Member

    Messages:
    372
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Location:
    Was New Zeal
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks for the info guys

    From what is being said it might be worth some more research.

    There are some cheaper monocular viewers about that sound interesting, just need to make sure that they focus close enough. Either that or spend about $4-500 on some ex miltary ones. They seem to focus down to 10 inches, or 25 cm for those of us in a metric world. Could be handy for that extrem low light stuff :smile:

    I will update as I go.
     
  7. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hi David, I REALLY want to take this route with IR inspection. How have you progressed on it? It sure makes a lot of sense to do it this way. Sure there is the upfront cost, but after that it would prove extremely valuable. My only problem is knowing which goggles or scope to buy. I don't want to buy something expensive that doesn't work well.
     
  8. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I also see there are several types of these googles. 1 gen, 2 gen, 3 gen, 4 gen. The cheaper ones are 1 gen, or 1st generation I think. Is 1 gen good enough for film inspection? I may have a search on the net, try to find other using this method and their IR Equip..
     
  9. sbaggett

    sbaggett Member

    Messages:
    5
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Memphis, Ten
    I have a pair of Gen-1 goggles ($500 US) and they will focus down to about 12-in (30cm). They have a build-in IR source (necessary in a totally dark darkroom), but this source emits a tiny amount of visible light in the red (very faint). If you get a pair of goggles, I would use a separate IR source such as this: http://www.maxmax.com/aXNiteFlashlight.htm I used the goggles for a while to aid in loading sheet film but got better at loading and can load in total darkness without them, now.
     
  10. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks for the info, so the ir source on the googles emits a little visible light, but the ir flash lights emit no visible light? I found a gen1 mono google on ebay today for 280US that looked pretty good.
     
  11. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ok well, I hopped onto ebay and found an auction finishing in 5 minutes. It was the one I was looking at earlier. I bid on the start price and got it. It's a monocular night vision 1st gen, with headset, able to focus down to 12 inches. It's new with a 2year warranty, seems to be a reputable company. If it doesn't work out I'll sell it to a hunter on NZ's auction site. I paid 239US for it. They say the goggles are 500US, so seems more economical to get a monocular for half the price. Can't wait to see if it works.
     
  12. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    that is a great idea! wow, never thought of that. Good thing I haven't built my sink yet! :smile:

    I'll let you know how it goes. I should be up and running in less than 2 months.
     
  13. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I also think being new to 8x10 this device might help with loading the film..
     
  14. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm now trying to see if I can build my own infrared light source. There is an electronics store down the street that I'm sure would sell IR LED's. Now, if I can just find plans to construct one. It seems like it would be simple..
     
  15. glbeas

    glbeas Member

    Messages:
    3,307
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Location:
    Roswell, Ga.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Actually a simple tungsten bulb with an appropriate filter will do the job. It puts out about twice the IR as visible light.
    Something you might want to try when you get the IR viewer is an old safelight housing with a sheet of black plastic stretched over it. Often the black plastic is pretty transparent to the IR as the black is a dye incorporated into it. If its colored with carbon black it will be IR dark too, a little experimenting will tell you which is what.
     
  16. livemoa

    livemoa Member

    Messages:
    372
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Location:
    Was New Zeal
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Sean, been away for 3 weeks, no cell phone no computer, just great...

    I have yet to go down the IR route, lack of time to do the research, be interested to hear how you go.

    Cheers
    David
     
  17. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'll let you know, hopefully within 3 months time I'll be 100% up and running.
     
  18. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    HOUSTON, we are GO for development by infrared inspection.

    [​IMG]

    Well, I got the night vision goggle today, shipping took a while. I was nervous that everything would be green and fuzzy, but after testing it in the darkroom, I'm amazed. I could read very fine print crystal clear from 12 inches away, and it was bright as daylight just green. I think this thing is going to be an awesome tool for the darkroom!
     
  19. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    -and I can be a Borg for Halloween :wink:
     
  20. bmac

    bmac Member

    Messages:
    2,156
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Sean, I think your eyes have adjusted to the whole night vision thing thanks to Paris Hilton!

    Brian
     
  21. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    here's a pic of the device. I got mine brandnew from ebay $240US. There is a guy on ebay that is an authorised dealer, if you search on "ATN goggle" you'll find his listings.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. Aggie

    Aggie Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Location:
    So. Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    ..
     
  23. MikeK

    MikeK Member

    Messages:
    557
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2003
    Location:
    Walnut Creek
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    This looks more like an "All Blacks" scrum half hat/cauliflower ear protector with a monoscope attached.

    This might just work for "in-the" dark rugby :smile: Now that is an exciting sport.

    - Mike
     
  24. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    9,321
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    hehe :smile: